#60: Is Psilocybin Right for You? With Michelle Harrell

Love Is Us: Exploring Relationships and How We Connect

Are you curious about psilocybin (magic mushrooms)? There's a lot of compelling research being published about their potential benefits, but are they right for you? Today I talk with Michelle Harrell, a licensed facilitator in Oregon, who has been facilitating sessions for the past six months. We talk about how psilocybin can help you, how to make the most of your experience, and a lot more.

Michelle Harrell is a licensed psilocybin facilitator who is committed to helping others connect with their own self-healing capabilities, creating deeper connection to self and source. Prior to training as a psilocybin facilitator, Michelle enjoyed a successful international corporate career in Human Resources and Information Technology. For over 20 years, Michelle supported global teams through various change programs. Through her work, she realized how difficult change is for most people and she enjoyed supporting others through their own life transitions, big and small. Living and working abroad while raising two children overseas provided an opportunity to work with individuals of all backgrounds, cultures, and nationalities. She aims to bring this passion for diversity and personalized service to her facilitation practice.

Learn more about Michelle:

Website: https://www.treeoflifefacilitation.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/treeoflifefacilitator/

Learn more about Karin

Website: https://www.drcalde.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

Episode:

Karin: Hello everybody. Last week, I announced that I was finishing up my training to become a licensed psilocybin facilitator in Oregon, currently the only state in the country where that's now legal, although Colorado is not far behind. And this week I thought I'd invite my colleague Michelle Harrell to speak with me. Now, for those of you who don't know what psilocybin is, I recommend you go listen to my previous episode where I give you the details. Michelle is currently licensed and has been facilitating sessions with people for the last six months or so, and I anticipate having my license by late May or early June, depending on how long it takes for the Oregon Health authority to process my application. So just a few things we talk about on today's episode include the ways that psilocybin can be helpful for you and your relationships, how you can get the most out of a psilocybin experience, how likely it is that you'll have the experience that you really want for yourself. And Michelle also talks about some of the changes that she has seen in her clients after they've had a psilocybin session. So I hope this episode gives you a better feel for whether or not this might be an experience that you might want to have. Michelle is currently taking clients, so if you think you might want to work with her, go ahead and check out her information, which I'll put in the show notes. I really appreciate the response that I've gotten so far to my announcement. I've had a lot of people who have expressed interest, so I'm planning on offering a free informational webinar about psilocybin. So let me know if that's something that you would be interested in attending. Send me a message on Instagram where I'm @theloveandconnectioncoach, and please share this episode with others who might appreciate it. All right, thanks for being here. And here we go.

[02:46] Michelle: Welcome, Michelle. Thank you, Karin. Thanks for having me.

[02:50] Karin: I'm so glad to have you. I want to dive into how we met and how this all started, but why don't you just start by telling us where you are in the world?

[03:02] Michelle: Sure. I am in Portland, Oregon. And yeah, that's also where I work. And I love it here.

[03:11] Karin: And what keeps you here?

[03:13] Michelle: What keeps me here? I just love Oregon. I think it's beautiful. I love the green spaces that we have. I love the fact that we have mountains and forests and ocean and even desert. It's just a beautiful part of the country to live in. I love the Pacific Northwest. And, yeah, I can't imagine myself leaving anytime soon.

[03:36] Karin: Yeah, I love it for all those same reasons, too.

[03:40] Michelle: Yeah.

[03:41] Karin: And we met at a business networking event last year.

[03:47] Michelle: We did? Yes.

[03:49] Karin: And you got me going on my.

[03:51] Michelle: Current project, which I love. So it's really fun to have you.

[03:58] Karin: Here and to hear about what you're now doing for work.

[04:02] Michelle: Yeah. So I am a state licensed psilocybin facilitator. Anyone who may not know what the word psilocybin means, those are psychedelic mushrooms. And Oregon is the first state to actually legalize any kind of psychedelic program in the United States. So it's really exciting to be a pioneer in this new industry that is slowly emerging. Colorado will be the next state to go live with their legal program in January of 2025. So, yeah, Oregon was first, and I launched my business in September and have not looked back since. It's been fantastic.

[04:42] Karin: And I just want to say that of course, there is a thriving underground psychedelic community, but this is just a little bit different. And it's a way to kind of influence and shape how we do things going forward because I don't think that Colorado will be the last.

[05:02] Michelle: I think you're right there.

[05:04] Karin: This is the beginning of a trend, or hopefully not a trend, but of how we do things going forward. And I'm really hopeful that we can do it well. There's lots of things I think we can still work on, but, yeah, I.

[05:20] Michelle: Think one of the advantages of being first is we get to kind of see what works and what doesn't work. And then one of the disadvantages of going first is trying to figure this out where no one has in a space where no one has been before and making sure that clients are safe, that facilitators are safe, and that everybody can get access to these kinds of services when they need them is the biggest challenge. But yeah, it's been going well. I think the majority of my clients are from out of state, which is surprising. I knew that I would have some out of state clients when I started, but I never expected the majority of them to be from out of state. So who are needing these services are finding us, which is pretty amazing.

[06:15] Karin: So great. And how did you come to do this work?

[06:20] Michelle: Well, I think like many people, I came to do this work through my own experiences with psychedelics. I was going through some normal life transition stuff back in 2019. I was starting to date for the first time after my divorce, which was in 2017. And I was also starting to feel a little bit cynical and discouraged and unhappy in my career after being in corporate spaces for many, many years and really just kind of in search of, like, what's next. My kids are getting older. They're about to be an empty nester. My youngest child is a junior in high school. My oldest is already in college. And so just all these kind of big transition questions that many of us have in midlife were kind of on top of my mind. And then I happened to meet someone who introduced mushrooms into my life and had some amazing experiences with mushrooms myself, which really were transformative and helped me to find forgiveness from all kinds of things and processing of past traumas and things that we all have in life, and really helped me to find focus about what I wanted to do going forward. And so once I had those experiences, I wanted to know more. I dove into all the research. I read every book, I watched every podcast and show that I could find on psilocybin and was just very fascinated with the success rates that many of the research trials were having. And my biggest inspiration was the Johns Hopkins research that they were doing with terminally ill cancer patients. And the success rates there were quite astounding, with folks really coming to terms with their own mortality and the anxiety and depression that is involved with that. And my own stepfather passed away in 2014 of prostate cancer. And it was just really difficult for the whole family, but especially my mother. In the same year. My grandfather also passed away. So my mom lost both her father and her husband in the same year, and I lost my grandfather and my stepfather. And it was just really tough on the whole family. And my mom dealt with depression afterwards and grief. And I just thought, man, if we had known about these little mushrooms back in 2014 or had access to them, maybe things could have been different, right? Maybe we could have dealt with that situation differently. And I just think it's beautiful if you can help someone really appreciate the life they have left, rather than focusing on the death that is impending, I just think that's a beautiful gift that you could give somebody. And so that's really what inspired me to want to get involved. And then in the fall of 22, my boyfriend actually texted me and said, hey, I just saw in the news that they're going to be issuing licenses starting in January. You've been talking about it kind of like, where are you going to put your money? Where your mouth is? Kind of thing? And so I decided to do it. I dove in and decided to leave my job that I was at at that time and dove in full time. And I know that was a very privileged position that I was in, that I was able to afford to do that. I know not everyone can do that, but that's kind of how I started.

[09:47] Karin: Oh, wonderful. And I love that you mentioned the studies that looked at how psilocybin can help people with end of life. I found that the most touching out of all the things that they can really help us with, and there are many, that really affected me deeply as well. People can really see the beauty of life and appreciate what they have left and the people that are in their life for that time, rather than on the fear.

[10:15] Michelle: Yeah, exactly. But also while really recognizing the fear because it's real, that's one thing we all are going to do, is we're all going to die. We just don't know when. Right. But I always challenge my clients, no matter what their intentions are or what they're hoping to gain from these experiences, I always challenge them to try to find gratitude. Even in the darkest moments or in their greatest fears, can they find gratitude as well? And I think that with impending death, on the one hand, of course, many of us don't know when we're going to die, so it's very easy for us to just ignore that. But if we know we're going to die, in a way, it can be a gift. Like how many of us get to really say goodbye to our loved ones before they die, because we don't know when it's going to happen. But if you know when it's going to happen, that could actually be a really beautiful thing, to end life with dignity in life, with closure and all the things that come with that. So it's just all about how you.

[11:16] Karin: Look at things, and so it can help with end of life anxiety. What are some of the other things that psilocybin can help people with? Based on research or experience or what you've witnessed.

[11:29] Michelle: Yeah. I mean, the number one reason that my clients seek me out is for depression and anxiety. That is by far the number one reason that many folks reach out to me. But I've also had a handful of folks that are dealing with trauma or PTSD. I've had folks who are dealing with addiction, rehabilitation or recovery. I've had folks who are just looking for a mystical or religious experience or spiritual experience, and then a handful of folks who are also just really curious and looking for just, like, heart opening or curiosity or added playfulness or creativity in their lives. So really, there's no right or wrong reason. I think if you're called to do this, you should explore it regardless of the reason. But for sure, the number one reason is anxiety and depression. And it's definitely a tool that it's not going to fix everything, it's not going to cure everything. It's not going to give you all the answers to all the questions you've ever had. Nothing's that easy. But it definitely can be a catalyst to open new perspectives, new insights, new ways of looking at yourself and looking at the world. And that often helps people shift out of these negative thought loops that we all kind of get into in our own head. Right? Yeah.

[13:06] Karin: And the way I look at it is that it kicks off your work.

[13:10] Michelle: Exactly. Yeah. No, you're 100%. And I tell people that all the time that the real work starts after. With integration, for sure.

[13:19] Karin: Yeah, because you can learn a lot during a session, but then it's about how do I integrate this into my life?

[13:28] Michelle: Exactly. And how do I cultivate and maintain this newfound perspective or newfound insights and build new habits, build new routines for myself?

[13:39] Karin: How might it help people with their relationships?

[13:43] Michelle: Where do we start? It starts with self love. Number one. That's been my answer before I knew about mushrooms. If you don't love yourself, it's very difficult to love another. And I think that that is a common struggle that connects all humans, that we all struggle with self love and self worth. And I think until you can really heal yourself, it's very difficult to have a healthy relationship. And I know it's very cliche, but it's true. Hurt people. Right. And so as long as you're hurting and you're not fully aligned with your truth and with your self worthiness and your self love, then again, it's very difficult to offer that to somebody else. To me, the base of a good relationship starts with you, right? Not with the other.

[14:42] Karin: Right? Absolutely. And do you ever see couples?

[14:47] Michelle: I do, yeah. I love working with couples. I have not actually had a couple actually do a session together yet. I know that some that have with other facilitators, but I have definitely had couples where they do sessions back to back. And when a couple reaches out, that's one of the first things that we talk about is, what are your intentions for this work? And if the intentions have something to do with the actual relationship, or maybe they just want to have an experience together as well, then I think it's fantastic to do it together. However, most of the time, as you start talking with a couple, they realize very quickly, oh, no, I really need to work on myself. I want to do this or that or the other. And then if that's the case, I do recommend doing it yourself, because, again, if you're both in the room can be a little bit distracting, and you might tend to want to put your focus on the other rather than on yourself. And this kind of work is very internal and very internal work. And so when other people are in the room, it may be a little distracting and you might end up putting your energy somewhere else rather than working on your own intention.

[16:04] Karin: Yeah. And as you know, as part of our education in becoming psilocybin facilitators, we do a research project. And so mine has been on relationships and how this can help people in long term romantic relationships specifically. And there is a lot of good data coming out in support of psilocybin for relationships. Research so far is showing that it really helps with empathy and communication and sexual satisfaction and function, openness and openness to new experiences together, also a spiritual connection to one another. So there are some really exciting things and exciting research that's continuing to be done so we can learn more. But, yeah, it's looking really good for helping people in that area as well.

[17:02] Michelle: Yeah. No, I mean, anecdotally, I think just in my own experiences as well, it helped improve my relationships, not only my romantic relationships, but when you talk about communication and things like that, I'm much more able. And many of my clients describe this after their experiences in some way, shape or form, that it helps give you space to kind of view yourself and your ego and things that may not serve you. Right. It's not to say that your normal triggers and your normal behaviors might still flare after a session, right. Because we are habitual creatures. But when those things happen, after you've had an experience like this, you're much more able to take a pause and kind of go, wait a second, like, what's going on here? I feel my anxiety flaring, or I feel my triggers being triggered. But give yourself pause to actually choose a different course of action or a different reaction. One of the very big common themes that I see with many clients and myself included, is some kind of acceptance and surrender of what will be, will be, and how can I actually choose a different reaction. And the only thing that I really control is myself. Right. I think many folks come into this work. The biggest struggle for most of my clients is the surrender piece, because it can be very scary, especially people who've never done any kind of psychedelics. It can be very scary for them the first time. Even if they want to do it, they're very nervous and anxious about it. And this perceived lack of control that they might have during the session, it can be very scary. But I tend to try to coach and talk with them in preparation about surrender and about what that looks like and what that means, and the fact that we really aren't in control of anything other than ourselves. We're not in control of other people. We're not in control of the weather. We're not in control of any kind of outside influences. All we can control is our own reactions and our own emotions, to a point. And I think that that becomes something afterwards, through integration, that people become very aware of and are much more able to kind of sit with their own feelings in a moment where anxiety might be flaring or their normal reactions are coming up and they can kind of go, wait, why am I reacting like this? What's going on underneath this anxiety? And how can I choose a different path? And that's all about integration. But that really is, in a nutshell, what a lot of folks find.

[19:50] Karin: I imagine that when people come to you, they're seeking a certain kind of experience, and yet, do people always get the experience that they want?

[20:00] Michelle: No. I mean, yes and no, but, yeah, that's, again, a really huge part of our preparation time together is helping them and coaching them to really look at themselves pretty deeply and try to really be honest about where their ego might be tied to certain outcomes and expectations. I think, on the one hand, it's great that we're having this culture shift around psychedelics. And there's so much out there in the media and podcasts and TV shows and Netflix. There's so much out there that people can watch and see and hear about others experiences. And so I think that's fantastic to be well informed. And obviously, it's helping to shift the culture to be more accepting of these types of medicines, but it also kind of can set expectations in people's minds. And we do love to compare ourselves to others, and we love to say, oh, I want that kind of experience. And sometimes your experience can be very negative in a way. Not negative, but very. Can be a struggle, can be dark. Right. And yet the folks that have those kind of dark experiences and struggles almost always come out the other end saying that they're glad they went through it, that they feel like there was light at the end of the tunnel, that there was love and joy and all the things that many people experience when they do a psychedelic, and yet they had to go through that struggle to get to that light. Right. And so it's not always easy for my clients, and some really do struggle during the session. A lot of emotions can come up for people, and sometimes things come up for people that they don't expect at all, that we didn't talk about at all during prep, was not part of their intention. And that's part of the preparation that we do together is really preparing them for the unexpected and preparing them to trust that process and to trust that they're going to be okay no matter what happens during the session.

[22:16] Karin: Yeah, I think it's so important to talk about that because a lot of the coverage that we see in the media and in books talks about how wonderful and how powerful and how life changing and. Yes, yes. And.

[22:32] Michelle: Right. Yeah.

[22:33] Karin: It can be really hard. And not everyone has a great experience, and a lot of people don't get the experience that they're necessarily hoping for, although you will hear people saying yes, but you will get what you need.

[22:48] Michelle: Exactly. Yeah. Just like the Rolling Stones say, you might not get what you want, but you'll get what you know for sure. And mindset is so important going into this, and our mind is so powerful that you can actually stop yourself from having an experience as well, even on a really good high dose. If a client doesn't feel safe, if a client is not ready to look at their own stuff with honest honesty and accountability, if they are somebody who's often looking outside themselves for answers or blaming things outside of themselves for their situation, sometimes they're not ready for this. And I actually have turned down clients, potential clients, I should say, because I didn't feel like they were ready to really do the work. And I'm not in this to make money. I mean, of course I have to make money, but it's not my number one goal. My number one goal is to help people help themselves and find healing. And if I don't really think you're ready to do the work necessary, then honestly, it's a waste of their money, their time and mind. Right. And so I will sometimes advise people that maybe they need to wait six months before they think about this, and that isn't always the answer that people like to have. Yeah. So that's difficult sometimes, but, yeah, at the end of the day, if somebody spends this much of time and money and then they come out the other end with a less than satisfactory experience, that's not doing anybody any good either.

[24:29] Karin: Yeah, no, and I appreciate that so much because this is an investment for people of time and energy and money, and we want people to have a good outcome. And so what can people do to prepare and be ready for this kind of deep work?

[24:47] Michelle: Yeah, I mean, definitely the clients who really take the time to sit and spend with preparation, really thinking about their intentions and then examining those intentions. So what I often coach clients is sit down and just write down everything that comes to mind. Don't edit yourself, don't judge yourself. Just write down everything you think you are hoping to get out of this. Right. And then go back to that maybe a couple of days later, and then look at it and try to think, okay, where's my ego tied to some of these? Do I have expectations around? Well, if this doesn't happen, then this was a waste of time. Or, I want my experience to be all butterflies and light and joy. Be honest with yourself, because I think that is the first step in preparing your mindset for an experience like this. And it's okay to say, yeah, I want it to be like this, X, y or z, but then be okay with the fact that you might not get everything you want. And that's really the key, because, again, you can't control it and you can't guide it. And I think the clients who do try to control and guide it and steer it, it continually slips away. Right. Sometimes with women, especially men, don't necessarily maybe understand this example or metaphor, but I think women definitely do. It's like trying to chase an orgasm. You can't really chase an orgasm. The more you try to get there or think about it, the harder it is to achieve, a lot of times. So if you can relax and really be in your body and be present, things just happen as they naturally do. And it's very similar with a psilocybin experience. If you're really trying to force something and guide it and steer it, it just keeps slipping out of your hand. Yeah.

[26:44] Karin: And that can be really challenging, especially for people who have that need to be in control, have that need to be right. They're not used to self reflection or dealing with emotions. They push emotions away. Those folks are more likely to have more challenging experiences or not really even get off the ground.

[27:09] Michelle: Yeah, 100%. I have had clients that kind of failed to launch, for sure. And nine times out of ten, it's one of those things that you just mentioned that they do like to be in control, and they get this false sense of security from being in control. But at the end of the day, that's not going to accomplish what they're hoping to gain from this experience. So it's very unfortunate when that happens. And then I've had clients who, unfortunately, are on SSRIs or things like that that can sometimes interfere with this medicine. And so we always try to take that into account and dose appropriately, but every once in a while, not complete failure to launch, but less of an experience than they were hoping.

[27:56] Karin: Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned SSRIs, because I had been under the impression for a number of years that people on SSRIs could not have a psilocybin experience. But that is actually not true, is it?

[28:07] Michelle: Oh, no. I've had several clients that are on SSRIs actually have really good experience. So there's, like, the science side of it, and then there's the art, the art and science of it when it comes to dosing. And one thing that we do a lot, especially with clients that are on SSRIs or are dealing with addiction, because they tend to have higher tolerance as well, is we usually employ booster shot or booster shots. Booster doses, I mean. And so we'll start with a base dose that is typically higher than other folks who are not on SSRIs. So we start higher already knowing that that's the case. But then we often have them purchase booster doses ahead of time. And the way that works in Oregon is you have to decide within the first hour whether or not you're going to consume that booster dose. But that is a really good tool to help, kind of. It's like a plan B backup plan. In case that initial dose is not strong enough, then they have the option of taking an additional dose to try to get them over that bump. And that tends to work, quite honestly, that works a lot of times, and it also gives them a feeling of more safety and more control. So I've even employed it with clients who are not on any SSRIs or don't have any kind of contraindications. The client who needs to feel really safe because they're very anxious about the process. That can also be another great tool just to help give them a little more feeling of control of the situation so that they can kind of go slow. Right. Start low and go slow. That's a mantra for us in this industry a lot of times.

[29:51] Karin: Yeah, that's really important. Thank you.

[29:54] Michelle: Well, I just would add as well for the client who's very anxious and very controlling. Sometimes they need more than one session as well. And I have had clients come out the other end who were extremely nervous and kind of uptight about the situation, who have said, now that I know what to expect, I definitely want to come back and do it again, because I think next time I'll be able to really lean in and surrender more. Sometimes that happens. You just need to do it a couple of times before you can get to the real deep work. And that's part of their process.

[30:29] Karin: And in those cases, you start out with a lower dose the first time, and then maybe the next time you have a higher dose.

[30:36] Michelle: It just kind of depends on the client. Again, it depends on what their situation is. Are they on any Ssris? Are they heavy cannabis users, alcohol users? Are they very controlling? I take all those things into account when thinking about dosing, and dosing is always very personal, and I like to do my first preparation session with a client, get to know them, talk through their intentions, set and setting that kind of thing, and come back to the second prep conversation with my recommended dose. And then it's a conversation between us. And, of course, it's ultimately the client's decision. It's their decision about what they put in their body. But most of them are looking for me to make a recommendation, because they look to me to be the expert in that space. And I take a lot of things into account, their personality, things that we talked about during prep, but also all the contraindications that might be in place. So, yeah, it just kind of very depends. It depends on the person, and each client is different.

[31:39] Karin: And what's the timing when you think that someone could use a couple of sessions? Like how much time in between?

[31:46] Michelle: Yeah. Again, there's no right or wrong answers in this space. I think there are some guidelines and stuff, but I think the thing that you learn from doing this work and taking this type of medicine is to start to trust yourself more and to really listen to your own inner voice and inner instincts. And so, again, it depends, right. It could be like somebody wants to do it a month from now again, or they're like, you know, I think I want to come back in six months. I need to do some more work. Obviously, if they do have some real insights in the first session, I do always recommend they take time to try to integrate those first. Like, really spend some time integrating what you've already come out with before you try to go into another second session. If they completely failed to launch or they had a very mild experience, it might be beneficial for them to come back sooner and do it again while it's still a little bit fresh in their minds. And they still kind of can recall how they felt going in the first time, because a lot of times, the second time, they're more able to surrender and more able to let go. So it really just kind of depends on the individual and their circumstance.

[33:00] Karin: And why is intention setting so important?

[33:03] Michelle: Yeah, I think intentions. Otherwise, why are you doing it? Right. So I think it's really important to think about what you're hoping to gain from this, and that really starts the process of that inner work. I've had many clients, the ones who take it seriously and who really spend time working on themselves and working on the preparation for this experience, often start to have insights even long before their journey day. I've had many clients tell me during our second prep call, oh, I had this dream, and all this stuff from my childhood came up in my dream, and we talked through it, and they start to find insights already ahead of time because their brains are already working on these things in the background. Right. It's amazing how powerful our emotions and brains can be. So just, it's like maybe the placebo effect or what have you, that once they've made that decision for themselves, that they want to work on themselves, things start to happen. So that's a big part of it. I also tell clients, set your intentions and then let them go. Don't hold on to them too tightly, because that's, again, when we start to try to want to steer it and guide it and force a certain outcome, which is not how this works. So setting your intentions is extremely important, but then at the same time, releasing them and letting them go and saying, okay, what will be, will be. But this is what I'm hoping to gain. That's very powerful. You can do that?

[34:41] Karin: Yeah. And I'll just add that it comes down, really to mindset, too, because they say that has a more powerful effect than even how much you take.

[34:54] Michelle: 100%.

[34:55] Karin: So what you're thinking about your emotional state, your intentions. All those things have a profound effect on your actual students.

[35:05] Michelle: 100%. You can definitely talk your way out of an experience in your mind if you want. Yeah. I had one client who, honestly, she couldn't get there. It was very unfortunate. I had so much empathy for her, but she couldn't let go of that control and she just never launched and she was very upset by it. And it's very frustrating and hard for me as their facilitator to watch because as much as I can help prepare and coach and guide you in preparation, I also have no control over what happens the day of when you take the psilocybin. And so if you're really not able to let go of that control and let go of your ego, wanting to feel safe, then you can definitely talk your way out of it, even on a very high dose. Yeah, which is quite amazing. I mean, it tells you how powerful our minds are, which is exactly why people are seeking this out in the first place. It really does create neuroplasticity in your brain, helps make new connections in your brain, but ultimately you have the power to help that happen or not make it happen, which is amazing.

[36:31] Karin: Yeah, it is amazing. And I've had a range of experiences, but I have had that experience where I took pretty high dose and I couldn't let go that day. And there were some reasons for that that I understand now. And it's helped me dive into the kind of work that I needed to do. So ultimately it was still helpful.

[36:52] Michelle: Well, exactly. That's what I try to. I always say the experience you have is the one that's meant for you. And there is learning in every experience, whether you kind of qualify it as bad or good, doesn't really matter. There's still a lesson to be found. And for her, I don't know if she found it, but for her, this particular client, I think her lesson was in the fact that you can't control everything and that if you really want to do this work, you're going to have to trust and you're going to have to let go. And when you're ready to do that, then maybe the lessons will be there for you. But she has to get there on her own.

[37:36] Karin: Yeah. Can you give us some examples of intentions?

[37:41] Michelle: Oh, sure. Common kind of themes around intentions have to do with forgiveness, acceptance, sense of purpose, healing. Obviously healing from past events or past relationships or past trauma. Appreciation and gratitude is another one. Folks who are really struggling with depression and anxiety often struggle to find joy, struggle to find bliss. So just that in and of itself can be a great intention. I want to experience more joy. I want to experience more bliss. I want to find more gratitude in my daily life. But, yeah, I mean, those are very common ones. Yeah. Sense of purpose, meaning of life, these big, ethereal, big questions. Right. Those come up a lot for people trying to understand why I'm depressed, trying to understand why I have so much anxiety. That's a lot of the intention setting that I see with people.

[38:58] Karin: And what are some of the changes that you've seen in your clients?

[39:02] Michelle: Oh, wow. Gosh, so many. I've had clients who come out with complete perspective shifts. I would say about 40% of my clients have these really big, kind of knock you over your head kind of wow, transformations, right. And they come out like, oh, my gosh, my whole world's turned upside down. I see things so differently. Just complete 180. And then the other 40% tend to have insights and things, but it's not quite as big. Right. They're like small. It's almost like planting seeds and then you have to water those and grow those and cultivate those. And I actually think sometimes that group has an easier time afterwards with integration than the first group. And it's funny because most people want the first kind of example. Most people come in and like, I want to just come out completely new and with all this new perspective and huge insights, but that can really throw people off center and throw them through a loop and can be very difficult and challenging afterwards to integrate because it's like, okay, how do I go back to my Monday, nine to five, now that I see the world so differently? How am I going to even function in this world now?

[40:26] Karin: Right.

[40:27] Michelle: That can be a lot harder. So it's funny when people, most clients want that, but many of them don't. And then I set 40% of each and then the other 20%, unfortunately, sometimes don't have huge transformations or have a mild experience, as I mentioned. And so those are the folks that sometimes would probably benefit from coming back and doing when they're ready.

[40:55] Karin: Yeah. And I love the advice that I've heard that it's a good idea if you had a big experience or even just a smaller experience, not to make any major changes in your life for at least a month afterwards.

[41:11] Michelle: Yes. I tell everyone that, don't go out and quit your job or sell your house or leave a relationship or get into a relationship, whatever. Don't make big decisions directly following. Take time to actually sit with what came up for you. Take time to try to integrate it. And then it might be that you do want to leave your job. It might be that you do realize how unhappy you are in a relationship or what have you, or that that person is the one and you want to propose or whatever it is. Right. But take time to sit with that and make a plan. Don't just jump from one thing to the next without any kind of plan, because. Yeah, that probably won't turn out how you like.

[41:57] Karin: Right. And people are pretty vulnerable for a while afterwards, and they're making a lot of changes in that time and kind of finding their feet again.

[42:09] Michelle: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Because it can throw you, like I said, it can throw you off center, and it can be a little destabilizing, which, again, can feel scary, but can also feel very exciting. And ultimately, is what people are seeking. Right. People are seeking to change how they are living, to change how they're thinking about things. But with that, change comes work and comes, that can create a whole bunch of new feelings right. Around anxiety and things like that. So that's why, again, integration is so important.

[42:51] Karin: And even if you don't have a great experience. Right, right. Or the one that you wanted or if you had not much of an experience, it could still really be important.

[43:01] Michelle: Especially, I would say, yeah. Because trying to examine what happened for you during that experience and why it could lead to some insights about yourself, if you're honest with yourself. Some people aren't ready to be honest with themselves, though. That can be a problem.

[43:21] Karin: And that integration process can take a lifetime. Sometimes people really need to take a lot of time to fully understand these experiences and what happened to them and what they can gain from them.

[43:36] Michelle: 100%. Yeah. And many clients report having further insights the weeks following. I think scientifically, they say that. That neuroplasticity in your brain lasts for about 14 days following an experience. So they kind of call this the halo effect. And if you pay attention. Right. If clients are paying attention and practicing mindfulness, trying to be present with themselves, then they do often report finding further insights. It's like building blocks. You kind of start with something. You might come out with some real profound perspectives or insights from your session, but then as you sit with them and cultivate them and pay attention to them, it's like you find more and more, and they kind of build upon each other, and that's when real change and transformation happens, which is beautiful. Yeah. Now, many clients, many common themes coming out are around forgiveness of themselves, of others, acceptance of the fact that we're not in control accepting what we can and can't control and really being, again, more aware of our own triggers, our own behaviors and where that anxiety stems from. Because anxiety is often felt in the body and is like a fight or flight kind of situation. But when you sit with it and you start to examine it, really, it usually is some kind of deep seated fear or sadness or something going on. And anxiety is often about things in the future with worrying. And we imagine all these doomsday scenarios in our head, right? And so I often challenge clients to just really examine and feel back those layers about what is going on underneath this surface level anxiety, what is happening underneath, what's the real fear. And if they can manage to sit with that and be curious without judgment, without berating themselves, without all the negative self talk, then they can really discover things about themselves that will help them change going forward. And I tell people, many clients afterwards are surprised. They go back to their daily lives, and they come out with this amazing, joyful experience and feeling a sense of one with nature and the universe and love and God and all the things. Then they go back to their daily lives, and then we talk in integration. And they say, but I'm still feeling anxious. I went to work, and I still had that. One colleague still triggered me. I still felt angry. And I'm like, well, of course, you're still human, right? So I think their expectations sometimes, like, all these things will go away after they don't go away. But almost all of my clients say that they find newfound space again, to kind of sit with that and look at it and go, okay, well, what's going on? Why am I getting upset? Why am I getting anxious? Why am I getting angry? That kind of mindfulness and presence and ability to sit with their own emotions is where they start to cultivate new insights and change.

[46:51] Karin: It reminds me of so much of the buddhist practices and meditation and mindfulness work and how all of that is really related to this kind of work. And diving into some of that ahead of time can also better prepare you to do the psilocybin or the psychedelic.

[47:12] Michelle: As well, which is really what intention setting is, right? I mean, if you think about it, like, sitting down and thinking about your intentions is being present with yourself, is being mindful. And so it really starts from day one. If you're preparing for a session like this, you're already practicing mindfulness. In the beginning, we might not call it like that, but that is really what it is. It's sitting down, taking time with yourself, which unfortunately, in this world, we don't do enough of. I think so many people were just existing. So many people are just existing. They kind of have their daily routines. They get up, they go to work, they come home, they do the same thing. Watch TV until they fall asleep or they're scrolling at the Internet and Instagram and TikTok mindlessly. And there's just so many easy ways for us to distract ourselves and to compartmentalize and numb ourselves.

[48:09] Karin: Check out a life.

[48:10] Michelle: Yeah. And it's very easy to do in this world that we live in now. It's just so easy because we're not even bored anymore. Step into an elevator. Watch everybody. Most everybody, as soon as you step in the phone, come out and everyone's looking at their phone and there's no eye contact with people anymore. That's the world we live in. And I myself am guilty of those things. But maybe sometimes leave your phone at home or leave it in your pocket and stand in line at the grocery store and don't blot your phone and just look around. Just little things like that can change the way you start to connect with yourself. And for integration practices, I always try to help a client find some kind of mindfulness practice, stillness practice that they can cultivate and add into their routine. And it doesn't have to be meditation. It doesn't have to be yoga, which I think a lot of folks think that's what I'm going to suggest a lot of times. And some people just don't like meditation, are not good at it. And I'm like, you don't have to do meditation. Maybe it's taking a walk with your dog, but leaving your phone at home. Maybe it is fishing things that you can do where if you are alone and with your own thoughts. But still, sometimes people need to be physically active in order to kind of create this flow state for themselves. But anything that where you can really sit with yourself and think about be introspective works. It doesn't have to look like one thing.

[49:53] Karin: We never talked about microdosing or doing this work in groups, but those are also options in Oregon, right?

[50:03] Michelle: Yeah. Yes. And group work can actually be a much more economical and affordable avenue to this for folks who may not be able to afford a private. You know, you obviously have to be comfortable with being in a group space with other people and other individuals. There's a lot of benefits also to group work as far as this sense of community that is created with the other participants. And sometimes that can be really empowering for people as well to understand and see that they're not alone. What they're feeling, what they're going through, is a common human experience across the board. Doesn't matter how rich you are, doesn't matter how talented you may be, we all are human. We all deal with life and trauma and depression and anxiety, like everybody. That's a common human experience. And so I think there can be some really beautiful things that happen in a group setting between the individuals that are open to sharing with each other and connecting with each other. That can build a really nice community for you to lean into afterwards for integration as well. Can raise some long lasting relationships, perhaps.

[51:20] Karin: Yeah, I know that integration circles or groups are really popular, and they can be very helpful to people, and that sense of community also is helpful.

[51:33] Michelle: Yeah. And then microdosing. I mean, gosh, where do we start? There's so much research right now happening with microdosing. Everything from Alzheimer's to fibromyalgia to long COVID to lyme disease, chronic. All kinds of chronic pain and migraine headaches, cluster headaches, arthritis, you know, just so many, so many applications. The research in those spaces is still quite new, and maybe not as conclusive as some of the bigger for macro dosing, but anecdotally, people are already reporting a lot of benefits that are microdosing. I happen to know personally a few people who've managed to wean off some of their SSRIs and have started microdosing to help maintain their mental health and feel 100% better. I also know someone who's terminally ill and was on all kinds of pharmaceuticals and feeling terrible and not having any kind of real quality of life. And he wasn't able to get off all the pharmaceuticals, but he was able to get off many of them and feels that he has a much higher quality of life now, even though he's still terminally ill, but he feels like what life he has left is much of a much higher standard now through microdosing. So there's just so many applications for that. And many clients asked about it after they have a big session.

[53:10] Karin: I just wanted to make sure to mention that this isn't necessarily for everybody.

[53:16] Michelle: True.

[53:17] Karin: Especially those who might have some health conditions. So I don't think it would be a good idea for us to try to list all of them here, because we're going to miss some things. And the research is inconclusive about a lot of this stuff.

[53:29] Michelle: Very true.

[53:30] Karin: It's like if you have elevated blood pressure, if you have a history of schizophrenia in your family, those are just a couple of examples of situations where it might not be such a great idea. There is also some research coming out about people who microdose long term and how that might not be a good idea, that it's better to do it in short doses than it might actually have an effect on your heart if you have a predisposition for that. So it's really important to do some research into this stuff and to look at your own health and to talk to your providers, because a lot of them now are becoming more informed about psychedelics, too. Not all of them. So proceed with caution.

[54:14] Michelle: Thank you for saying that, because I think that's really important. I always advise clients to speak with their doctors, therapists, psychiatrists, whoever they may be seeing.

[54:25] Karin: So if there's one thing that you'd like people to walk away with after listening to this conversation, what would it.

[54:31] Michelle: Be for me, what was most transformative after my own experiences with mushrooms? For me, it was finding faith and finding the realization that I am not in control and that that's okay. In fact, I don't actually want to be in control. It's a lot to have on your shoulders. The idea that I can control and steer everything is exhausting because where do you want to spend your energy? And the quality of my relationships has improved across the board with my parents, kids, my partner, my friends. And so I would say the thing that I would want people to come away with is really, if you think if you are struggling with depression, anxiety, trauma, or what have you, this may be a good option for you. But again, I would suggest you do your research, read all the books, watch the podcast, that kind of thing. Really get informed. And if you really think you're ready to do this work and look at yourself honestly and do the hard work, then this might be a really good option for you. It could help you get over that hump of where you've not been able to kind of make breakthroughs on your own. It's really a catalyst for healing, but the healing itself happens, like you said, a lot of times after.

[55:54] Karin: And what role does love play in the work that you do?

[55:58] Michelle: Well, I mean, it's another big theme that a lot of people come out with is love of self, love of this world, love of this life. I had a client. It was fantastic. I had a client a few weeks ago, an older woman, and she was coming in and she had done all this really hard work and preparation. And she really expected her journey to be very kind of dark and serious because she thought she had all this stuff to kind of release and get over from her past, and her experience was just like laughter and joy. She laughed and giggled almost the entire 4 hours, and during it, she was just like, oh, my gosh, this is not what I expected at all. This is so light and joyful. And she said, but this is what I needed. She realized, this is what I need. I've been taking things way too seriously, and I fully expected this to be hard, but this is beautiful. And she came out with such a new passion for life and for this next chapter of her life, she's getting ready to retire, and she was worried about that. And now she gave herself permission to actually ask for help from people. She's somebody who didn't often ask for help because she saw it as a sign of weakness. But now she's like, it's okay to ask for help. She often didn't start projects that she wanted to do because she didn't know how to do it. And so she would start it and then she would not finish it. And so now she's like, I'm just so excited to do these projects, and I realize I don't have to know everything in the beginning. I can ask for help. It's just these kind of newfound perspectives that people come out with create this sense of self love and self confidence in so many of my clients that it's just so beautiful to see. So love is always at the core. I think, of some of the healing that takes place. Love of self, mainly, and then forgiveness of others. Forgiveness of people who may have hurt you in the past doesn't mean that it's okay what they did. But often people come out with this newfound acceptance of what was, was. I can't change it. I can't change what happened. But what I can do is accept it and move forward and let it go. And I think that forgiveness is beautiful. Weight lifted off of many people's shoulders after an experience. And to me, that's all about love. So, yeah, I think love's the foundation. Beautiful.

[58:33] Karin: And how can people learn more about you?

[58:36] Michelle: So you can find me on Instagram at Treeoflife facilitator, or my website is treeoflifefilitation.com. I'm also on Facebook and LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn under my name, Michelle Harrell. And yeah, I'd be happy to connect with anybody out there who might think this is right for them.

[58:58] Karin: Before we go, are there any books that you can recommend people read if they want to learn more? About psychologists and psilocybin.

[59:07] Michelle: Yeah. How to change your mind by Michael Poland is definitely a good think. You know, gosh, that book, I think, on its own, kind of triggered this cultural shift around psychedelics. It's also by the same title. There's a series on Netflix. If you're not a reader, you can also watch it on Netflix. But, gosh, there's so many books out there. There's so many. But that's the one that comes to mind just because it's one that seems more accessible for a lot of think, you know, he does a really good job of kind of presenting it in a very mainstream kind of way that many people can relate to and digest easily. Yeah, great. Yeah.

[59:54] Karin: And I loved that, too. That definitely got me going. I will say that over time, I came to realize he really kind of skipped over some of the important cultural history behind some of these medicines, which was disappointing. But there's so much great information in that book.

[01:00:11] Michelle: There is. And thank you for saying that. I would say we're having this culture shift in the west about psychedelics, but honestly, these medicines have been used by indigenous cultures for centuries. We're just catching know. We're catching.

[01:00:31] Karin: Yeah.

[01:00:31] Michelle: Yeah.

[01:00:32] Karin: Well, Michelle, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. I really loved it, and I have a feeling that this is going to be a popular one.

[01:00:40] Michelle: Oh, good. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it immensely and would love to do it again if needed.

[01:00:47] Karin: Great.

[01:00:48] Michelle: Thank you, Karin. Thanks for having me.

OUTRO:

[01:00:50] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Ali Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be love. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.s