#52: The Power of Men's Groups, with Jason Lange

Love Is Us: Exploring Relationships and How We Connect

Jason Lange is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He believes every man should be in a men's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide.

Jason is a certified “No More Mr. Nice Guy” coach, and has trained and studied with leaders such as John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, Jun Po Roshi, Tripp Lanier, and Ken Wilber.

Men's Groups to checkout:

Jason Lange’s groups

The Mankind Project

No More Mr. Nice Guy

Evryman

Learn more about Jason:

Website: evolutionary.men

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evolutionarymen/

Learn more about Karin:

Website: https://drcalde.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

[00:49] Karin: It is Saturday night and I have been burning the midnight oil this week as I work through this new training program that I'm doing and get this episode out to you by Tuesday because I'm so excited to share it with you all. So in this past year, I've put a lot of time and energy into learning more about men and working with them. I want them to feel respected, heard, and seen, just like the women that I see when they meet with me. I'm sensitive to the reality that most therapists and relationship coaches are women and that can make men feel like they're at a disadvantage or even ganged up upon during sessions. And sometimes they are because many therapists don't really understand the male experience. So that's something that I've been working on. Also, when it comes to most of the couples that come to me, the men haven't done a lot of their own work, and this might be their first time when they're really looking at their emotions and expanding their self awareness. And the women in my practice have done at least some of this work, even though they still have work to do, too. So men often are playing catch up, which can add to their feelings of being the problem. But it's usually both parties that need to work on the relationship. It's not generally just the man that is the source of the problem. What we're going to talk about today can help men tremendously. Not only those who are doing couples work in therapy or coaching, but also they can help men in all areas of their lives and can certainly help them improve their marriages and their relationships. That might be a bold statement, but I really believe it. So my guest today is Jason Lang, but I'm going to let him tell you more about himself and the work he does because this episode is a little bit long, but it's definitely one to share with other men and with those who are in a romantic relationship with a man. So thanks for being here. And here we go.

Episode:

Karin: Welcome, Jason.

[03:06] Jason: So excited to be here.

[03:08] Karin: Yeah, it's really great to have you. So tell us where you are in the world.

[03:12] Jason: Yeah, so right now I'm located in Los Angeles, California.

[03:17] Karin: And you actually have some rain.

[03:20] Jason: Yeah, we've had yesterday, actually rained quite hard, which was super nice. Just nice to have those in days.

[03:26] Karin: Yeah. Now, have you always lived there?

[03:29] Jason: No, I've been out here about 14 years now. I lived in northern California for a while, Colorado for a while, and then I grew up outside Chicago, so I've kind of bounced around a little bit.

[03:42] Karin: Yeah. What keeps you in LA?

[03:44] Jason: I certainly love the weather. It's just easy after having grown up in the midwest and the culture, just an awesome culture here. So much diversity, so many great people just gotten immersed.

[03:58] Karin: Great, great. So tell us what you.

[04:02] Jason: So, you know, kind of took some wines on the way here. But these days I'm primarily an embodiment coach for men that also facilitates specifically men's groups. And I help men in their growth and their journey in all the ways that I needed help, unsurprisingly. And that having gotten through not of all, but certainly some major issues in my life, I feel really lucky to be able to give back now. And it's kind of what I was doing for myself and just enjoyed putting all my attention on. And then I kind of shifted gears and. Okay, well, I could also help other people doing that. So I'm one of the lucky people that how I sustain myself and my passion are aligned.

[04:48] Karin: Yeah, that's wonderful. It does feel good to be able to do this work and do it from the heart, right?

[04:54] Jason: Absolutely. Yeah.

[04:56] Karin: So you said a little bit about how you got here. Is there anything more you want to say about that path and why specifically you run men's groups?

[05:06] Jason: Yeah, I mean, I think I have a similar story to maybe lots of different men in that, and I work with guys on this now, but that phrase, like I had a pretty good childhood, is always points, oftentimes to some things underneath. And for me, I grew up in kind of lower middle class white man in the United States of America in the 80s. So had a lot of privilege and continued to have a lot of privilege. And my basic needs were met in terms, know, housing, food, all that kind of stuff. But my inner world was what was pretty neglected in terms of my family. Did not really have much emotional presence with each other, physical presence as well. There wasn't a lot of touch in my household, which I didn't know till I got older and kind of uncovered some things. And it was like, oh, wow, there's like massive gaps there for me. And my journey really started because as I went through puberty and kind of my sexuality came online, I found I was just deeply uncomfortable in my body and got very anxious when it came to thinking about talking to women and didn't know what was going on. And it caused me a lot of pain and a lot of loneliness. That really kind of kicked off my personal growth journey in a lot of ways. Like, what's going on here? Why is this so easy for, so to speak, so easy for other people, but not for me? And that kind of kicked me off on a journey that took me first more into kind of philosophy and meditation. But then in my twenty s, I was lucky enough. I moved to Boulder, Colorado, which is kind of a nexus of a lot of personal growth and spirituality. And it was there I went to therapy for the first time. I got exposed to my first men's group, and this whole idea of kind of actually doing inner work came online for me. And I consider myself so lucky. A couple of key relationships that formed there really changed the trajectory of my life. Probably most importantly was being in a men's group, getting in a men's group with guys, a lot of whom were actually a little older and more mature than me in different ways, that gave me access to something I just hadn't had before. My dad, bless his heart, he did a lot for our family, but he wasn't really able to provide me any kind of masculine guidance in my life. So a lot of my life was just like, feeling frozen in my body, afraid of what to do next. Like, I don't know, do I do this? Do I do? That created a lot of anxiety. And so landing in a place where I was around men who were just relaxed in their bodies, very present, and were curious about me and how to support, really tipped the needle for me towards my transformation finally taking root and really sustaining itself.

[07:59] Karin: Wonderful. I love hearing all of that. Thank you for sharing. You said something about there wasn't a lot of touch in your home growing up. And you also mentioned when you first introduced what you do is that you're an embodiment coach. So can you tell me a little bit about what those two things have to do with one another? Because I think there might be a lot of people that don't really know what an embodiment coach is.

[08:27] Jason: Totally. Yeah, they're absolutely obviously related in my own journey, which is now why I'm so passionate about them. But like I said, part of what started to happen for me in my teens and well into my 20s, honestly, was my body would get really uncomfortable with touch. I actually was pretty lucky in high school in that I was kind of an academic nerd, super into computers and stuff. But I found a little cohort of guys that I was really close with. So I had, like, five guys. I've always kind of had my group of men, which is something I've been so lucky, but I was never one of those wrestle kind of horse around guys with other men. I felt really uncomfortable when it came to touch around women or just hugging in general. And it was because my nervous system just was not conditioned for it. It was not something it had received. And so when I would receive it, it would actually kind of put me in a little bit of a threat state. I'd be like, what is this? What is this? I don't feel safe. So I learned to cope by withdrawing into my head, like so many men, and then learning to kind of try to regulate myself. For me, it was primarily porn. Masturbation and food were, like, the ways I tried to co regulate my nervous system, because I had never received any touch to co regulate me growing up. So that was how I adapted to the system.

[09:49] Karin: And which is true for so many men, right?

[09:52] Jason: So many men. And, yeah, I mean, a big thing. I tend to work with a lot of men, I think, for a lot of humans these days, but men in particular is we're not taught how to be in our bodies. We're not taught what our emotions are. We're not generally encouraged to feel them. So we have all this stuff inside of us, and we don't know what to do with it. This is the thing I see with a lot of they don't know what to do. Like, where do I put my feelings? What do I do with my feelings? So we try to discharge them or numb out to them, right through substances, through external stuff, through dissociation, is something I would often do, is just kind of withdrawing into my head. So embodiment, as I coach men now, is really just the practice of coming into direct contact with the sensations in our bodies, including, at least in my kind of belief system, emotions generally start as physical sensations in our bodies. So another reason a lot of men don't want to be in our bodies, because that's where we have to feel grief or anger or loneliness. So we eject out as fast as we can. Oftentimes but embodiment is the process of, okay, can I come into contact with all that in a very direct way? And I support men in doing that because I needed a lot of help doing it myself in terms of rewiring my nervous system. And that impacted my intimate relationships and it's also impacted my relationships with other men. Right. I think a lot of men are, in my experience, very touch deprived, particularly these days with post Covid remote work and just kind of the dissolution of so many things. There were guys I was working with, with COVID during COVID that if they weren't on a Zoom call with me, they had no social connection during that time because of the way they were coders or stuff like that. And that's, I think, pretty common, let alone getting active touch, which as you know, does so much to regulate our nervous system. I also try to help men learn, hey, you can get some of your touch needs met from other men too.

[12:00] Karin: Yeah. And then there's of course, that fear of, well, they're going to think I'm gay. And so that belief has come up and grown over the past, I don't know, century or so where you can't really totally have those relationships or touch because then that's bad. That's also associated. Gay is associated with bad for so many hetero men as well.

[12:23] Jason: Yeah, that ties right into this idea of the man box. Right. That has kind of formed, which is the set of do's and don'ts that men are expected to be in, that are often enforced by other men. Like a man is someone who, x, y or z doesn't show weakness, doesn't show vulnerability, doesn't touch other men. Here in the States, I think it's particularly hard for us men because we're fed this, what I kind of call this, excuse my language, but the bullshit narrative of kind of the rugged individualist cowboy, pick yourself up by the strappy your boots, the lone wolf. He's tough, he never shows any weakness. And it's just not sustainable. The thing about those guys is often they're addicted to all kinds of substances. They end their lives with heart disease. This stuff has such an impact on men and fighting against that man box, which is that. Yeah, us men, we're allowed to have emotions. It's okay to not always be strong. It's okay to touch other men and receive that kind of platonic love is such a transformation. And as I often say to guys now, like, well, tell me, who do you think is more afraid? The man who feels his feelings or the man who's afraid to feel his feelings, and that always kind of, like, kicks them up. It's like, oh, that tough guy. He actually isn't willing to go there, so he's afraid to go there. Whereas, as we learn in the culture, I like to try to create with men, it's like, yeah, the brave thing is always just to go into the feeling in a responsible way.

[13:53] Karin: Yeah. And then how does that help men to be able to be with their feelings for one?

[14:02] Jason: I think what I found is the space, particularly in a men's group. I mean, I do one on one work with guys, but I really come alive. And I love the power of a group because there's just something so potent there of safety that we can create. And specifically, it becomes a place where we're allowed to be messy and not have it sorted out and be reactive, even in ways we're sometimes not allowed to, where we can kind of get in touch with what are our wants, what are our needs, what are our hurts. And other men can hold space for us in that. And then what I found is, as we get in touch with that inside the group, it makes it a lot easier to bring it back outside the group in very direct ways. Like, yeah, I'm hurting because I'm feeling this, or sometimes guys don't even know that. And what I've also seen is, like I said, I got lucky in that I got to experience men who were modeling this. It's one of the fastest tools I've seen is when men see other men stepping bravely into their truth, their authenticity, their vulnerability, their emotions. It's like a quick download of, oh, that's what it looks like to be in healthy anger, right? Not overreactive or destructive, but not collapsed. That's what it looks like and feels like. Or, wow, that man is in tears right now, and he feels so strong to me. Right. I have no doubt that's an incredibly strong man. Again, there's that kind of felt in the body sense, that transmission that can happen in the group very fast. And then the other key thing I found is, I sometimes call it the vortex, particularly in groups, is every time one man steps into that space and kind of goes for it, of like, I'm going to really go to the place I'm scared to, it kind of makes it easier for the other men to go. And suddenly it's like one man goes deep, then another man's willing to step in, and then that man's work actually reminded another man of something. So he gets all lit up and wants to go in, and the whole group continues to deepen and deepen. And it's been so powerful in my life to experience that and now to also witness other men having that experience.

[16:17] Karin: Wonderful. So great. What kind of men benefit from men's groups?

[16:24] Jason: Yeah, I'm going to argue any man. So part of my mission is every man should be in a men's group. And I've worked with guys and been in groups with guys across the board. And what I mean by this is young guys who have barely entered the adult world, all the way up to mature men that are retiring and winding down their lives everywhere in between. And one of the things I love about these groups, like I said, is as a lot of the kind of social structures that did connect men have evaporated in a lot of ways. It's one of the only places I have actually seen intergenerational contact, like connection. Someone older and someone younger, like, coming together. And they both often have something to offer the other one, the youth, offers some kind of vitality, or just seeing the world in a fresh way. And sometimes the older, more mature guys, a little bit of wisdom of like, yeah, man, I've been there. And here's what helped me.

[17:22] Karin: I could also just imagine, because there's, I think, a lot of this misunderstanding between generations, too. Like, oh, Gen Z is this and millennials are that and Gen X are that. And being able to get to know people of other generations, I bet, really build some bridges and understanding and compassion.

[17:44] Jason: Yeah, it's been amazing to witness and see that, because I think what it does is it humanizes, right? So suddenly it's, oh, this is a human, not just a label, like all those young kids or those old people. It's, wow, you have your pain and I have my pain, and we're both really trying hard to make this all work, and suddenly there's that feeling of we're on the same team. Yeah, I've seen young guys, old guys, single guys, married guys in particular. I think often fathers, as the research is, it's something like over the age of 30, it's like men really struggle to create new friendships with other men, particularly as they get into long term relationship or become fathers. Some of it's just bandwidth, timing. Some of it's, again, not knowing how to do that. And so I've been in a men's group here of my own in LA since 2015, maybe. And we've met every other week like clockwork, just boom, boom for a while. It was virtual and Covid, then it was in backyards, and then now we're still in backyards. But that has sustained me through a lot. And for me, one way I often talk about this is it's also just super efficient. I'm a father. I run my own business, live in LA, where it's hard to get around and see people. So it would be hard for me to actually see seven of my best male friends every month if it wasn't for this group. But there's just like, we're here no matter what, and it keeps those connections alive in pretty powerful ways. And it gives me somewhere to go and process and be with myself and get feedback from other people, which is also very valuable to my relationship. So then not every single thing is having to be processed between me and my wife. If there's a charge or I didn't show up in some way or different things, my group is a place where I can kind of work some of that and get some feedback, oftentimes in that, oh, there's more for you to look at than you thought about in yourself there, right? Instead of just, it's always my partner's fault or whatever. Men's group is a great place where I get to kind of sort through that in some powerful ways.

[20:01] Karin: So I'm going to be the devil's advocate here and think about the people who are listening, who are thinking. A bunch of guys getting together and crying and feeling sorry for themselves. Is that what's going on? So maybe you can speak to the accountability piece, the growth piece, how this might affect marriages and parenthood, all of that.

[20:24] Jason: People often ask me like, yeah, what do you do in a group? And sometimes they joke, yeah, we get together and cry, and sometimes we do. Sometimes men really do. Right? They just need a place where they can fully collapse. I think that's another thing, is men, because of the man box and patriarchy, we tend to take on these stories of, we have to hold it all together. We have to hold the family together. We have to always be tough, always hold it together. And men very rarely have places where they feel like they can just collapse and be held or be a mess. Right? And I've had this happen multiple times in my life. Snot pouring down my face, men just holding me, like, weeping, because some of the challenges I've been through and that has restored me and actually given me the strength and vitality to then go back and be with the challenges in my life. But it's not always like that. Yeah. Just as important I always say there's two sides to a men's group, and the way I've experienced them and teach them is they're supporting each other when we're under resourced or down. But then there's also holding each other accountable when there's something important in our lives, we want to move forward or improve. Right? And so it's not so much a culture of shame or calling out, but there's this way, particularly in groups, where you get to know each other over time, you learn, what does this man want? What does he really care about in life? What's his deepest yearning? And then you can support a man in getting there by not calling him out, but calling him forward. Right. So I've been in part of some pretty intense groups where men have been called out for leaky containers in their relationship, cheating on partners, staying in jobs they didn't care about, staying in relationships too long they didn't want to be in. You name it. When other men know you and trust you and are like, hey, I see what's happening here, man, and it's not cool. I know you have more than this to offer, so we got to clean this up. And it can cause great change for men when they're held accountable like that. And it's a crazy thing. Not everyone understands, but a lot of men actually secretly yearn for that level of accountability. For someone who doesn't let them get away with shit or be less, there's, like, a real desire, and it's infecting when we're in groups like that where people are like, wow, these guys really, they actually care enough about me to call me out if I'm not actually living up to who they know I am in my heart. And that's a really powerful thing for a lot of men to have that level of trust with other guys.

[23:08] Karin: It seems like it helps you live in integrity.

[23:11] Jason: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Totally. Groups are a great way to get integrity.

[23:17] Karin: Yeah. And when you're in integrity in alignment, this is what I'm. I believe, and so this is what I'm going to do. That's all in alignment. It feels really good and empowering, magnetic.

[23:29] Jason: Often not only to us, but to people around this. They're like, wow, this person is lined up, and I can trust them. Their insides match their outsides. And that's something I think men's group can help, is to bring those two things in alignment. Right. Sometimes we're acting one way in the world, but we're feeling another way inside men's group is a way where we can start to feel that way. And then either those things come into alignment or we have to renegotiate that agreement to be closer to what we actually are, how we are behaving, how we are feeling.

[23:59] Karin: Yeah. So I brought this up when we first talked. It's a phrase that I sometimes hear men say and they know, happy wife, happy life. What do you think about that?

[24:12] Jason: It doesn't work. I've just seen, I've done a lot of work with, I've trained with Dr. Robert Glover, who wrote no more Mr. Nice Guy, which you and I were talking about, I think is kind of, it's the book that wakes up a lot of men, I think, these days, particularly this subset of man who often subscribes to this belief, happy, happy wife, happy life, which is the. My job is just to appease my partner and make sure they're happy at all given times, which there's a noble intent there, right. Like genuine love for a partner and care for them. The problem is, and where it tends to break things out of integrity is when men start doing that at their own expense. So they start putting their partner's needs ahead of their own and they don't set healthy boundaries or they get trampled over, or they don't speak up for themselves, which then often creates actually a lot of resentment or passive aggressiveness that then still shows up in the relationship. Right. So it just doesn't tend to work long term because I've talked to spouses of guys, I've worked with nice guys, and over time, for some partners, when they can feel like my partner is just letting me walk all over them, their respect actually goes down for that partner and then they kind of treat them even worse. Right. And it starts to feed into itself. And so a lot of work I do with nice guys in particular is, yeah, learning to get in touch with our wants, our needs, to be able to set healthy boundaries that aren't aggressive, they aren't pushy, they aren't domineering, but they're respective of what that man needs as well. And long term, that does tend to create more sustainability. Because the other thing is, what I work with guys on is you probably have some thoughts on this, too. The most durable relationships I've seen and that I'm certainly trying to create with my wife are the ones where it's not even always about what makes you happy or me happy. It's what does our relationship need to thrive, which sometimes, some days is not the thing I want to do or not the thing that's going to make me happy. But I can feel, wow, our unit, this thing that kind of lives beyond us, it needs this thing. And that's where I think as men learn to tune into that, they can actually start to bring some leadership back to the relationship often as well.

[26:38] Karin: But it does start with understanding what they need, doesn't it? And that can be so hard for men. Some men, I think, have a really hard time identifying what do I want, what does make me happy, because they've pushed that down for so long. Right?

[26:59] Jason: Totally. And that ties right back into so, like me as someone who is fairly disconnected from my body, those two things are often linked, right? When we're in our bodies, it's often much easier to connect to, oh, that feels right to me, or that's a yes to me, or I want that. When we're not in our bodies, we get stuck in this endless rumination that so, right, men just get stuck up in their heads, overthinking, overanalyzing. Should I do this? Should I do that? And it can be so painful and so draining. So draining. But again, as we get more connected to our bodies, and then if we can get in a safe space, particularly with coaches, therapists like you, counselors, men's groups, where we feel safe to actually explore and get in touch with that need, then it's like, oh, yeah, actually, that's what I want. And then once we're really what I've seen over and over in myself is once I finally connect to the feeling, the action starts to become clear of, oh, yeah, wow, I can't stay in this relationship anymore or I have to switch jobs. Now that I've felt the truth in my body, it's going to be too harmful for me to pretend anymore or to keep playing the part or whatever. So then it's like, well, how do I do this? And integrity. And then again, the group can often support a man and, okay, well, let's figure this out. How do we make sure we navigate whatever transition needs to happen for you or lifestyle change you need to make in as healthy a way as possible?

[28:32] Karin: I love that you mentioned the tendency for men to be in their heads, and I think that it's the case, of course, for a lot of women, too. But we tend to overemphasize rationality and thinking in our culture and it really cuts the head off. We forget that we have a body and that there is so much wisdom there and the way you were describing that also reminded me of intuition. So much of it is tapping into that. That really is a feeling in the body for most people.

[29:10] Jason: And that ties right into what I often do work with men around is a lot of men come to me because they want to be more impactful leaders in their relationship, in their work and their family and their communities. But it's really hard to lead when we're stuck up in our heads, ruminating. And so much of what I would call this next wave of healthy leadership comes from embodiment. The information is actually coming from the senses in our body. And I was blown away doing some research for something, and they were talking about the vagal nerve down the center of the body and how it's a two lane highway, but actually, 80% of the bandwidth of that is the direction body to brain. Only 20% is brain to body, meaning there is so much more information flowing in through our bodies. And when we think about, well, who's going to be a more effective leader? The one who's tapped into all that, their intuition, their body sense, right. In that, okay, what should we do? Or what do I want or what? There it is, right? It's not so much this, like, cognitive thing, it's just kind of this, well, this is what feels right right now. So I'm going to go with it. And it takes work, I think, particularly for a lot of us men that have been kind of trained out of our bodies to start to trust that intuition again and to get comfortable being in there.

[30:34] Karin: The other thing I wanted to say out loud is that when we're in our head so much, and we're maybe ignoring or suppressing, and it's often not conscious, all of this stuff that's going on in our bodies and our emotions, it doesn't mean those things go away. Those emotions are still there, but they end up being out of our control and leaking out, and we might explode because of it, or be irritable or whatever it is. And so we're less in control of.

[31:11] Jason: Ourselves, less in control. And another way I see this massively impacting men, I think, particularly as we age, is it drains our life force, it actually steals our vitality. So, so many men I work with, I'm too tired. I don't feel motivated, like stressed out all the time. So they don't have the energy to be with their kids, they don't have the energy to be present with their partners. These stuck emotions, like, as I've experienced it, and work with guys, anytime we're not feeling emotion, we're holding it in our body. So there's literally musculature that goes with holding, and it becomes so subtle and baked in, we forget. And one of the things that always blows me away when I'm doing my deep emotional processing work and then as I work with men is the amount of space and vitality, often on the other mean. I've been doing this work for a while, Karen, and embarrassed to say, but sometimes I'll still have an experience where I'll finally touch into some grief for something I'd been avoiding. Right. For maybe months.

[32:22] Karin: Sure.

[32:22] Jason: And every time I'm done with it, I'm like, oh, my God, that was so much easier than all the energy I've been putting into not feeling that for the last six months or year or for some guys I work with their entire lives, there's been things that they just have not had the capacity or safety or guidance to be allow themselves to feel. And that has a real heavy cost on our vitality, on our health, on our immunity. These things that I think particularly start to show up as we get into middle age and beyond. One man I do a lot of work with, he's a doctor of chinese medicine, and he started doing some more of this kind of interior work because he saw patients could come and he could stick needles in them. But if it wasn't getting to some of these emotional issues, it wouldn't go away. These issues would just stay chronic with them. So he's like, oh, man, we got to work this in more than one way. And it's a big thing, I think, for men that they often don't realize how much they're holding in their bodies. We often were just disconnected from that. And then we finally get in and it's like, oh, my God, I had no idea that was all in there, or I kind of knew, but I was just really afraid because, man, if I ever felt that I wouldn't know what to do with myself is another thing I often get from guys.

[33:41] Karin: How does this manifest in the bedroom? When men are disconnected from their bodies or they're in their heads or they don't process emotions, how does that show up?

[33:53] Jason: Such a great question. Yeah, I mean, I think it ties right into what I was talking about with leadership, in that I do have a lot of men that I work with. Sexuality is a big part of it. And I think particularly for this kind of subset of men, I work with these nice guys, right? We're often very sweet. I consider myself one very sensitive. Right? Very we care a lot about safety. We're very thoughtful, but oftentimes we're disconnected from our sexuality and our power. Right? Like, our actual. Just the impulses in our body. We're constantly filtering. I can't say that, or I can't do that. And that really shows up in intimate relationships and definitely in sexuality for men of, again, they could be having an intimate moment, but they're actually up in their heads, so they're not in their bodies experiencing pleasure as much as they could. They're not at all attuned to their partners. But as we get more into our bodies, and again, it's easier to be in our bodies when they're open. And there's not, like, a lot of emotional gunk in there, so to speak. So we've done some emotional processing and clearing. Then that kind of sexuality is just like a moment to moment trusting of, oh, I want to do this, or I feel called to do this. And it's much more natural and empowering to men. Like, there's not a technique or something you have to follow, per se, which a lot of men, we want to be given the instruction manual, and then I'll just do it like that every time because that works. Again, then we're following a script. We're up in our heads. We're not actually present in our bodies in the moment when we're present in our bodies, I think, really change physical intimacy and sexuality for men to help men feel just more relaxed, more trusting of themselves, and more able to actually enjoy what their partners are offering them and be really present in that and attuned as well.

[35:49] Karin: Yeah. And what about the nice guy who tends to have sexual compulsions? How does that work, and why does that happen?

[35:58] Jason: Yeah, I think there's a huge variety here, but a lot of times it's a type of addiction, let's say, in terms of there's some. Obviously, every guy is going to be different, but as a generalization, let's just say some nice guys, because they've kind of cut off their sexuality consciously. That's like you said, it leaks out sideways. It's still there. And in some sense, it can become ravenous. Right. Or unskillful, whether that's addiction to porn or escorts or. There's so many different ways I've seen this manifest in men. And, you know, underneath it a lot of times is just a deep yearning for some kind of connection and safety that they've never experienced or don't know how to ask for. Don't feel safe necessarily asking for. So I think a lot of guys, if it gets stuffed, it's going to come out some way. That's, I think, something we've probably learned hopefully as a lesson, as humanity at this point, through all the different ways it's manifested that when we try to deny it, it usually just means it comes out in some pathological form. So we want to healthily embrace, hey, this is a part of me. I have sexual needs, I have sexual desires. And as we learn to honor that, actually, for a lot of guys, I actually work with these nice guys, the shift from my sexuality is bad or dangerous because a lot of nice guys that I work with were raised by women or raised in environments. Feminism was coming online. Me too. And just immersed in the many real stories of how pathological masculine can be very dangerous with its sexuality. And so a lot of nice guys see that firsthand or experience that in some way culturally and are like, well, I don't want to be that guy, right? I'm going to cut myself off from that a lot of times. But then it either comes out as some kind of compulsion, or they feel dead inside, or they never actually get the thing they want. So the shift to, hey, our sexuality as men can be a really positive, sacred, generative thing. It doesn't have to cause destruction, can actually be a really healing, beautiful thing when we embrace it in healthy ways. Consent and containers and all those different things. And the other thing I tell a lot of guys is, I'm like, whoever you're attracted to, I don't know a single person in the world, really, who doesn't want to know their intimate partner is physically attracted to them. We all want to know our partner wants us. A lot of guys, right?

[38:39] Karin: Yeah.

[38:40] Jason: It's like, what? Really? It's like, no, she wants to know you want her, or he wants to know you want him, right? It's okay for you to have that desire. And that's like a big reformatting for guys as they realize, oh, this isn't something I have to be ashamed of. This is something I can embrace. And then as they start to feel better about it, they become more attractive, right. Because they're actually embracing, oftentimes, this part.

[39:01] Karin: Of themselves, such important stuff. Thank you. That's really good for men to hear, but also for women to hear, to understand what's really going on.

[39:10] Jason: And I want to be really clear. It's not to say that there hasn't been a lot of damage done by men, and there is a kind of accountability and responsibility that I think men can step into of wanting to create ever more safe spaces, female partners in particular, to experience their sexuality. Because the other thing I do work with a lot of men on is, unfortunately, for men who are actively dating, it's, like, usually not a matter of if, but when. You will be with some partner who's experienced some kind of sexual trauma or abuse and just be aware of that. And that said, you don't have to feel like that's your fault or your shame. You don't have to carry that shame in yourself. You just have to help your partner feel safe and expressed in her sexuality. And so we want to be doing both things at the same time, taking responsibility for the real experiences a lot of people on this planet have had, and learn that we can celebrate the healthy parts of our sexuality, too.

[40:08] Karin: Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to acknowledge that men and women are harmed by patriarchy and that system, and there are consequences for everybody. When, let's say, a married man or a man who is in a long term relationship joins a men's group, what are some of the changes that he might expect?

[40:31] Jason: Somewhat depends on what kind of group he's going to join. So there are just, like, we might say, hey, I'm a meditator. It's like, well, what kind? There's so many different kinds of meditation. I just want to acknowledge there's a lot of different kinds of men's groups. But in general, what I find is, for one, like I said, it gives men a place to go where they can be messy with their emotions and not have it all figured out and just feel safe to kind of fall apart. And that I just can't stress enough how big that is. It's like, oh, I have somewhere to bring my emotions now, instead of just numbing out to them in the world, really starts to change men. To know I have a place I can express and bring this stuff that is really transformative. I find that it helps men. It's kind of like how my friend in one of my men's groups one time put it is there's a sunlight effect, there's a sunshine effect of as kind of just like that vortex. As one man starts to make changes in the group, it creates, like, a natural inspiration for other guys to just, like, fuck, I'm ready to do that, too, or make some kind of change. So guys often start to actually stick to things more that they want to be doing to take care of their health or their vitality or their wealth or their relationships. Or whatever that might be. I find that for guys in relationships. I do a lot of work with men around this idea of polarity, right. How do we create erotic friction in relationships? Because the longer you are with someone. The easier it is to just default into. We're best friends. And we're fed this narrative of lifelong love and happily ever after. But the stories always stop when people get together. Which is really when the relationship starts, right? Oh, now we have to work at this. And particularly in longer term relationships. All the hormones, the dopamine cliff, the honeymoon period. Everybody's going to get there. And then on the other side of that, you actually have to learn to practice. And intentionally create that erotic charge with each other in all kinds of different ways. Which includes having a safe, trusting relationship. And actually being able to do certain things with our breath and our posture and how we hold presence. But what I find is being in a men's group. Is one of the most effective ways to increase polarity in a relationship. Polarity being that way, we create erotic tension, for one, it gives guys somewhere to go. That's kind of their own experience. Which in itself. Then they come back and there's like, oh, I was there and you were here. And, hey, there's a little bit of difference. There's what happened? Energy, right?

[43:22] Karin: Yes.

[43:22] Jason: You just feel your partner a little bit more. Guys tend to get more in their bodies. I find when we're just men's groups I lead. Tend to. We actually do embodiment practices. To actually spend some time to get into our bodies each meeting. And so we come back from the meeting more in our bodies. More resourced, more connected, more able. And more available for connection back home with our partners. So increasing that polarity I've seen is really key. A problem I see a lot of nice guys get into these days. And you may have even more stories of this. Is because so many men, it's so easy for us to isolate. And we don't know how to make new friends. We'll get into a long term relationship. And all the cool things we did that we were passionate about. We start to let go of going out to group meetings or running clubs. Or doing these things strictly when we have kids. And suddenly there's actual responsibilities. So all of our energy or attention tends to be at work or in the household, on our family or in our relationship. And so there's not really any space outside of there. The problem with that, then, is particularly in our intimate relationship, if we start to have tension or stress suddenly that one point of connection is our most important connection in our lives, right? Intimate partner, our best friend, our life manager, our cohabitator, our co parent. And so there's a lot riding on that connection. So guys will start to not necessarily express their full truth because they don't want to cause conflict or refrain from certain things. Or as I've been there myself, I feel overwhelmed or depressed or totally lost. And if I'm like, I don't know what to do, and I just kind of bring that to my wife, she's like, oh, whoa, what do you want me to do with that? Do you want me to take care of you?

[45:18] Karin: Which is so often what happens, right?

[45:21] Jason: Yeah. And she doesn't want to be my mother. She wants to be my lover, my partner.

[45:25] Karin: Yes.

[45:27] Jason: What I find is that, guys, we often love analogies. So if you think back to basic engineering, there's a single circuit, which is like, electricity flows through one pathway, and if one part of that breaks, no electricity flows. The old Christmas lights, right? If one light breaks, the whole strand would go out. That's kind of what a lot of nice guys in particular, get stuck in with their intimate relationships. Men's groups, like the parallel circuit, right, where suddenly we have a lot of nodes, so if any one of them isn't working, there's still energy flowing. So I don't have to bring all of my emotional processing or grief or sadness or stress or whatever just to my relationship. There's somewhere else for it to go. And again, I can bring the clarity of that back, and that's something I really see. When guys get into relationships, it changes their partnership, when their partners can feel their man is now being held by other men, meaning, oh, it's not on me alone to help take care of him or make him feel better, like he's got people behind him. And that can be such a relief on a partner's nervous system of like, oh, I feel like I can breathe. And now there's maybe even some space for me to bring forward some of the things I've been hurting or challenged by. And that's like, yeah, it totally changes things for men and really continues to change things for me.

[47:00] Karin: So there's another question I have I think is so important and might be a really big source of motivation for some men doing this. And that is, what impact does this all have on men as dads?

[47:18] Jason: That's such a great question. I got a four year old now, so I've been so blessed in my journey, had a lot of experiences with our child and some challenges when she was born. I'm kind of a men's group junkie, so I have, like, three or four groups, some virtual, some here in town, some meet once a year. But like I said, what I'm really lucky about is in each of them, I have elders who are kind of on the other side of having raised families. And I can't tell you just how relieving it's been sometimes where I've been in a crisis or had a challenge, and I kind of share what's going on. And sometimes it's nothing more than, yeah, wow, I totally remember how hard that was. I remember that phase, and it was just really challenging. And it may just be that way for a few years, and there's just like, oh, I'm not doing anything wrong. There's just like an acknowledgment of what that is or sometimes some actual advice in terms of, yeah, here's what we found to work, or here's what helped my child. That is such an asset for other dads to have that with older men, but also just peers as well, to talk about how's it going, and again, to have someplace to kind of lay our burdens, because for better or worse, a lot of men do take on that. I'm the provider. I got to take care of the family, and then we don't necessarily feel like we have space to not be that men's group is a place where you can do that. The other big thing I found is around the embodiment and the emotional fluidity. A lot of guys want to know, like, how can I make sure not to raise my kids, how I was raised? I don't want to do that. The answer I often give guys is, do your work. The best thing you can do for your kid is to continue your healing work, because what they're going to see in that, what your children are going to see is, while my parents continue to grow, they never stop growing. They know how to ask for help. They make mistakes sometimes. And that is kind of a revolution in some sense in terms of kids being able to see their parents in that process. And then as men get more into our bodies and learn more about that emotional fluidity and how to be present with our own emotions, lo and behold, it's far easier to be present with our children's emotions, right? To not get reactive when they're upset, to not be afraid if they're crying, but to just be present with them. That's mostly what they need from us, right? It's just our attention most of the time. And so what I see is guys do their own emotional work in a men's group. It totally filters back to the family. And I tend to work with a lot of guys around dating and relationships, and some of them will often be men who already have families. And that's the thing. They're like, I never thought this would help my relationship with my kids, but it's so much better. It's like some of the feedback I get over and over again because they're more open, they're more authentic, they're more vulnerable, and they're also just more present. So again, it's a place for us men to go when we're under resourced and to learn the skills so we can be more present in our family life.

[50:25] Karin: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I have found again and again when I have talked to people about their experiences, those who do the best had at least one parent or caregiver that had done their work. It makes such a profound difference in a child's life.

[50:46] Jason: It really does. Yeah.

[50:47] Karin: So I recommend men's groups to, I think, just about every man that I see, but I'll admit that it's challenging getting them there.

[50:59] Jason: Yeah. Tied into this. Again, not every man has this experience, but some men actually have wounding that comes from relationships with other men. Right. Whether it's a father, a lot of guys I work with are bullying when we are young or just general locker room culture. Right. Is we're taught from a very young age to never show weakness. Never show vulnerability, always be tough and kind of have your shit together. And that gets pretty programmed in deep for men. And so a lot of guys I work with, they come into a group, and at a nervous system level, they often experience other men as a threat. Right. Just being in a room with other men can be threatening. And so there's just talking about that, that, hey, it doesn't have to be that way. The types of relationships we can cultivate in an intentional men's group, they're not going to be the relationships you can have with every man out in the world. I'm not one of those people that's like, you got to practice vulnerability everywhere, all the time because not everybody has the capacity to actually be present for that or receive our vulnerability. Men's group is a safe place where we get to start to practice that and build that trust with certain people. So for those guys, I would just say, like, I've done a lot of things in my journey. I've done inner healing work, outer healing work, psychedelics, meditation, like therapies. And they've all helped. But the thing that made them stick, meaning those help bring up the transformations, but made it stick for me, was being in with a group of guys who journeyed on with me through my life, through the ups and downs, through having my child, through getting married, through all the intensities I've been through. And that relationship has reformatted things for me. And again, tying it back to leadership. Another thing I've really been experiencing a lot lately is a lot of guys will come in not trusting the masculine in other men because their experiences growing up or whatever, and that has an impact. What I found is then it's really hard for us to trust that inside of ourselves. So if we don't trust the masculine out there, that's where guys will doubt it in ourselves or not feel safe with it. And so as we get into a group where we can trust, wow, these guys are legit. They got me. They care about me. They're not using me or trying to threaten me or trying to win over me. They just want me to have the best life I can have. They start to trust that, and then we start to trust that more in ourselves. So if there's a man listening who's considering this, I know it's hard to get over that hump and kind of walk into a room of strangers, but it's something that can change your life. And for some men, I will argue, actually save your life. Like, the stats on what loneliness and isolation do to men in particular are overwhelming. Like, it's as dangerous as being obese, smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, not having that safety and that connection is so detrimental to your health that, if nothing else, I don't have a research study on this, but I'm pretty sure someone could work on one pretty easily. That being part of a group, you will live longer. Actually, I think a book just came out, join or die. That was talking about clubs. The fact that if somebody is part of a club, their life expectancy goes up.

[54:32] Karin: I believe it.

[54:33] Jason: Any kind of club. So a men's group is just one version of that that, I think allows a certain type of depth and healing that a lot of men need these days. As I say, obviously, I can't promise anything to specific men, but what I have seen is men come out feeling more empowered in themselves, more embodied, less afraid of their emotions, more connected, less alone. People start to trust them more, their relationships get better. And for a lot of men, when people feel them more present and they trust them more, they'll make more money.

[55:08] Karin: Yeah, right.

[55:10] Jason: They will do better in their careers, and people will want to give them more responsibility in money. Like, guys tend to do better in their careers as they get more in their bodies, as they get more connected to themselves and to others. It blows me away. But I keep seeing this evidence coming at me with guys I've worked with.

[55:28] Karin: And that makes sense to me, because when you make improvements to one area of your life that bleeds into other areas of your life, and you just grow so much. So, yeah, I believe that. Absolutely. And if I wasn't tethered to my computer, I would stand on my chair and applaud all of that. When I talk to my clients about men's groups, I hold back a little bit because there's a part of me that says, but this could change your life. This could be so profound for you. And I don't want to overstate it because I don't want to know what their experience is going to be, but it has that potential.

[56:05] Jason: It so does. And how I have been kind of phrasing it these days is it doesn't make life easier, but it definitely makes it better. All the stress of life is still going to come at you, and what a good group can do is help give you the resource to meet that, and it's just a lot easier. And frankly, it's a lot more fun. It brings a lot more play and vitality and connection in my life. When I'm in these groups, some of the most outside of my family, those are the places I want to be in those intentional groups. Because every time I leave a men's group, I feel in my body, that was time well spent. There's never a doubt, should I been doing something else? Or it's like, no, that was time well spent. That serves me, my family, my clients, everything, really.

[56:56] Karin: So an important question I have is, how does one go about finding a group? Because I know that there are some groups out there that there might be some groups that are really out there to uphold the patriarchy and might not be as healthy.

[57:12] Jason: 100%. Totally. Yeah. This is such a great question, and I wish I had a very great, concrete answer, other than you got to experiment to some extent, I think it's okay to try a group, but you don't have to commit to it right away. So, like, yeah, I'd love to come check out, sit in a group or two. If you find one or someone points one along to you, there's not a whole lot of resources right now, which is part of why I'm trying to kind of spread the word to make it easier for men to find groups and create groups. There are some organizations that have pretty big presences, but you kind of got to like their style, so to speak. But again, you just got to try in network is always great. So you start asking people, you know, your therapist, your counselor, other men, like, hey, do you know anyone that's doing this kind of work really can help? And the other thing I would say is, particularly for groups that are led by someone, and so I lead these groups. So this applies to me is if they pretend like they have it all figured out, like run for the hills, agree. Just honestly, if you're going to be working with someone in a leadership capacity in that sense, you want to know they're still in process, because that never ends, right? I'm never going to be a healed, whole person. It's just part of the fun. We get to keep growing, right? And so I have coaches, I have therapists, I have men's groups. Everything I encourage a man to do, I'm doing my best to experience in my life as well, because I'm still growing, too. And so I would suggest look for that in leaders in the group, if so. And the other thing I would say is a group can start by just grabbing two buddies and saying, hey, do you want to get together on Saturday? And just like, I don't know, just really talk for like an hour where you're not focused on a sports game or doing some sporting event, but your attention is on each other and each other's lives. It can start that simply.

[59:19] Karin: Right?

[59:20] Jason: It's just what's going on underneath for you? Where are you hurting in life right now? What would you like to be moving towards? And a lot of men are way more open to it than people realize once they're in that frame, there's like a, I've seen it. Guys get into a group and finally they have somewhere to talk where people are listening, and it's like so much comes out because they've been holding so much. And it's one of the greatest thing acts of leadership I think men can do right now is to kind of go first and to take a conversation or a relationship deeper. So don't be afraid to start your own groups either if you can't find one around you. I certainly have dreams of creating some kind of master directory or something at some point to just like, what's the go to place where guys can try to find groups around them. That's on my trajectory. We'll see when I get there.

[01:00:09] Karin: Yeah, wonderful. Yeah, I'd love to see that, too. But, of course, you can find some groups through meetup.

[01:00:17] Jason: Yes. Meetup is really great sometimes. Eventbrite, probably the biggest organization with kind of a global presence, which does tend to have local groups, which I know is important to a lot of guys, particularly after all the zooms of COVID is the mankind project. They're pretty solid, and they do have a lot of groups. They do have a very unique style. So, again, you want to try it out and see, does this resonate with me? Do the men in the group resonate with me? And if it doesn't, you can keep looking for another group till you find something that really. The thing I would say is you really want to find a group that you feel safe in. That's really important. You want to feel safe where you can bring any of you. You don't have to perform, you don't have to pretend. And if you can find that safety, even if just with another two men, that's a great start.

[01:01:06] Karin: Yeah. And then, of course, there's the no more Mr. Nice guy groups.

[01:01:10] Jason: Yes.

[01:01:10] Karin: And then I've also heard good things about everyman. It's another.

[01:01:14] Jason: Yeah, every man does some online groups. I do some groups throughout the year. So the good news is, I think this is starting to catch on. There is such a need, I think, for men right now, and this really is one of the best, what I would say medicines for men right now in terms of just something we need for our nourishment and health. And so it's spreading like there should be more and more available in the coming years, which is really exciting to me because I think that's one of the big leverage points we have on the world right now, is healthier men, healthier families, healthier planet, healthier relationships. It can really start there.

[01:01:49] Karin: Great. All right, so a question I always ask all my guests is, what role does love play in the work that you do?

[01:01:57] Jason: Oh, it's the greatest joy in that. I think there's a particularly unique texture that I've experienced to masculine love. Just this total presence. I see you. I don't need you to be any different. I'm here with you. That I really feel in groups that can be so healing for men, to just feel another man who's not judging them or ranking them, but is just right there by their side, in a sense. So it's incredibly important to the work I do and again, may set off alarms for some men because of the man box. But it is amazing when I do deep group works to actually see men fall in love with each other. It's like, wow. So glad to have met you and I'm so touched to know you. My life is better having you in it and yeah, I feel so honored to be part of those circles.

[01:02:57] Karin: Wonderful. And how can people learn more about you?

[01:03:00] Jason: Yeah, easiest thing to do to stay in touch with me or check out my work is to go to evolutionary men and I have a podcast there that guys can tune into and I do all kinds of men's groups and men's events throughout the year. So if you need somewhere to start, just feel free to reach out.

[01:03:18] Karin: It has been wonderful to have you here. Jason, thank you so much. I think this is going to benefit a lot of people.

[01:03:25] Jason: Yeah. Thank you so much, Karin, for having me and for clearly the huge amounts of love and devotion you have to the men you work with as well.

Outro:

[01:03:32] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Ali Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.