Boost Your Motivation to Train With This w/ Kasey Jo Orvidas

Podcast – Steph Gaudreau

Whether you are on the client side or the coach side, if you are trying to make positive changes in your life in regard to fitness, nutrition, and your health in general, having strategies to help you take a step forward and get better results is crucial. Having the right approach when it comes to improving your nutrition and fitness, especially when dealing with a lack of motivation or self-sabotage, comes down to the science behind health behavior change.

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Key Takeaways

If You Want to Understand Your Mindset Better, You Should:

1. Work with a coach or a client who is willing to talk about and prepare for the hard stuff
2. Understand that mindsets can shift drastically and often
3. Be kind to yourself when struggling with a lack of motivation or self-sabotage

Your Mind and Your Health with Kasey Jo Orvidas

Kasey holds a Ph.D. in Psychology and is a certified health and fitness coach. She has spent a good chunk of her life developing some serious expertise in mindset and health behavior change. She has transformed hundreds of lives (and minds) in her coaching career, while also being published in multiple peer-reviewed scientific journals for her research exploring the relationship between our mindset and our health and fitness behaviors.

The Base of the Pyramid

Your mindset is the lens through which you see the world through, how you assign meaning to things, and how you make sense of what is happening around you. It is the base of the pyramid for your health and nutrition, which is why it is so essential to understand the science behind making positive changes.

When you are able to face mindset challenges, you can start working towards more consistency, more motivation, and ultimately better mindset health outcomes.

Not All Sunshine and Rainbows

I’m sure you have heard people preaching positivity and mindset in the fitness space, but this is not a show about pushing through negative thoughts. Instead, Kasey Jo wants you to think about the hard stuff and prepare yourself for those inevitable moments when you get tripped up psychologically.

Addressing problems from a mindset perspective, whether you are a coach or a client, will help you determine which path will be the most successful in the long run. While truly understanding psychology, mindset, and behavior change is not necessarily the norm, Kasey Jo is working to fix that one person at a time.

Are you ready to take a deep dive into the role your mindset is playing in your health and fitness? Share your thoughts with me in the comments below.

In This Episode

• Why this isn’t just another mindset show (5:10)
• Understanding the spectrum of mindset science (12:16)
• How to collect evidence to stop your self-limiting beliefs (23:09)
• Tips for coaches on making a realistic yet optimistic plan for your clients (28:54)
• The difference between scientific evidence-based mindset work and other offers out there (34:20)
• How to understand the role of your own mindset as a coach and as a client (43:55)

Quotes

“Really, the stuff we are going to talk about today we are going to talk about from a health and fitness lens, but it can very much so be applied to other areas of your life too.” (6:11)

“Square one is where you are right now. So, literally the worst-case scenario is just where you are right now. So the worst you can do is try, potentially be successful, level up, and get to this next spot and this outcome you are looking to achieve. Worst-case scenario you literally are where you are right now.” (18:11)

“When we are talking about behavior change and longer-term goal pursuit, just visualizing the outcome, just manifesting, is not that helpful. And this is according to the research. What is helpful is sure, do all of that, please do all of that, but then also bring it back to reality. Think about what is inevitably going to get in your way; talk about the barriers, the challenges, and the setbacks. (30:56)

“The reality is it is not all sunshine and rainbows all the time when you are working towards something new and challenging and different and trying to make changes in your life that you haven’t been able to do before. And recognizing that things are going to be hard helps you have a different lens.” (31:25)

“If you can’t tell, I am extremely passionate about what I do and can really get going on some of these topics. And that is exactly what it looks like inside the program as well.” (49:24)

Featured on the Show

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Health Mindset Coaching Certification

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Related Episodes

FYS 410: The Power of Intrinsic Motivation in Fitness

FYS 388: Why You’re Struggling with Motivation to Workout

Blog: 5 Mindset Traps That Kill Motivation

Boost Your Motivation to Train With This w/ Kasey Jo Orvidas Transcript

Steph Gaudreau
When it comes to improving your fitness or making changes to your nutrition, having the right strategy and approach is certainly important, but one of the most underrated parts of your process is mindset. If you find yourself struggling with a lack of consistency, lack of motivation, or even self-sabotage, this podcast is for you. I’m joined by a very special guest who’s going to be diving into the science behind health behavior change. What you need to know to be more successful with your fitness goals.

Steph Gaudreau
If you’re an athletic 40-something woman who loves lifting weights, challenging yourself, and doing hard shit, the fuel your strength podcast is for you. You’ll learn how to eat, train and recover smarter, so you build strength and muscle, have more energy, and perform better in and out of the gym. I’m a strength nutrition strategist and weight-lifting coach. Steph Gaudreau, the Fuel Your Strength podcast dives into evidence-based strategies for nutrition, training, and recovery and why, once you’re approaching your 40s and beyond, you need to do things a little differently than you did in your 20s. We’re here to challenge the limiting industry narratives about what women can and should do in training and beyond. If that sounds good, hit subscribe on your favorite podcast app, and let’s go.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
What’s going on?

Steph Gaudreau
Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today on this very special episode with my guest Kasey Jo Orvidas, PhD. She specializes in health behavior change from a mindset perspective and an evidence-based mindset perspective. So on this episode, we’re diving into two parts. The first part is for you out there, if you’re somebody trying to lift weights, improve your cardiovascular fitness, improve your nutrition, or overall, make a positive impact on your health. We’re going to be talking about some of the roadblocks, some of the challenges that come up with regard to mindset, and how you can start working toward more consistency, better motivation, and ultimately, better health and fitness outcomes. Now part two is going to be for the coaches. So the second half of this episode is for anybody like myself who is working with clients. You’re maybe a personal trainer, a nutrition coach, a dietitian, or anyone who’s trying to help their clients make positive changes with regard to health, fitness, and nutrition, we’re going to be diving into some of the stumbling blocks that coaches make and how, ultimately, you can employ evidence-based mindset practices with your clients to help them get better results.

Steph Gaudreau
Before we dive in. If you listen to this episode and you’re like, Okay, I am ready to get to work. I want to take my strength, muscle, energy, and performance and take it up a notch. I want to take it to that next level. I want to feel like a badass, but at the same time, do it in a way that works with my physiology as an athletic woman over 40, with coaching and community support. Then go ahead and check out Strength, Nutrition Unlocked. This is my group program. We’re going to lay out the framework for you and guide you as you implement and really customize it to all the things that you’re doing, your preferences, your likes, and the places you want to go with it, then go ahead and get on board. You can start your process by submitting an application @at stephgaudreau.com/apply. We would love to hear from you and see you inside the program. Without further ado, let’s hop into this podcast episode with Kasey Jo Orvidas.

Steph Gaudreau
All right, welcome to the show. Kasey Jo.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Oh, I’m so excited to be here.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
I almost wonder how many people did not even click on this episode because they saw…it’s like mindset stuff again. Like, I see that all the time, you know. But this is different. It’s different. I swear, maybe we need to make the title like a different type of mindset episode, which is actually why I named my podcast, Not Another Mindset show, because there is so much stuff out there from sort of like a, I want to say, like woo, woo manifestation, just like, #positivevibes, type of space and like, love that space. There’s definitely some things we can take away from there. And like to play in that space myself as well. But where I’m really coming from is truly like a scientific and academic space.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
I spent close to five years in the mindset lab at NC State University doing research on growth versus fixed mindset and how that plays a role in how healthy we eat, how often we exercise, and just generally, how we take care of ourselves. And we see this mindset research infiltrating a lot of different other areas too. When it comes to just goal achievement in general, business, entrepreneurship, intelligence, and relationships, it’s everywhere. So really, the stuff that we talk about today, we’re going to talk about from a health and fitness lens, but it can, very much so, be applied to other areas of your life, too. And when we’re talking about mindset from this perspective, it really is sort of just the lens that you take to see the world through, like, how you assign meaning to things, how you make sense of things, and when you think about it, that stuff, how you’re assigning meaning to things and making sense of things in the world.

Steph Gaudreau
Yeah, I’m glad that you’re with me today. You know, I had the great honor of going through HMCC, your program, your flagship program, last year. We’re going to talk more about sort of like coaches and mindset coaching and stuff like that. But definitely going to be talking at the top of the episode about mindset stuff for, you know, that the person out there who’s like, I’m trying to get fit, I’m trying to lift weights, so I’m trying to, you know, introduce more physical activity into my life, or change my nutrition behaviors. Like, there’s so much for, I think everybody, when it comes to this topic, both coaches and sort of users alike. So we’re going to try to hit on a little bit of everything. Give, give everybody a little tidbit here or there. But I know one of the things that you talk a lot about and is a huge part of your platform, is, you know, the difference between the mindset stuff that you do and some of the other mindset work that’s popular on social media, or that you’ll see it out in the world. So I’m wondering if you can kind of explain for the people, how does the way you approach mindset differ from other content that might be out there that people are like, Oh, I don’t know. That just seems kind of like, not right, right?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Like, think about how much that actually directs how you end up feeling, the emotions that you have, the reactions that you have, the behaviors, the actions that you take. So there is a lot here, and it is very, very important, and it goes so much more beyond the just believe in yourself type of crowd. And unfortunately, I do think that that’s a lot of what we see on social media, and they take a growth mindset and plaster it in a totally different way. And just, it’s just about being positive and brushing things under the rug and moving on and giving yourself grace or it’s just just try harder, try harder, try harder. And there really is so much more substance to it than that, which is why, like, as you mentioned before, I create an entire certification around this stuff, because there’s a lot more to it.

Steph Gaudreau
Yeah, thank you for that. And I think there’s a lot of people who are aware of the challenges and the negative parts, the downsides to things like toxic positivity, right? Just like, everything’s gonna be fine, great. You know, like the meme with the dog and the house is burning down, and they’re like, fine, everything’s fine. So I do appreciate that. And it might surprise people to learn that there’s, there’s a lot of research. There are entire fields of study that are devoted to this idea of sort of health behavior change and mindset, and how those things intersect. How does one arrive at deciding to study this as part of what you were doing for your PhD?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yeah, I had no idea that there was a science to mindset. So when I say, like, I understand that coaches out there, people out there don’t understand that there’s a real science to this stuff. Like I was there too, not that long ago. Honestly, I went and got my PhD. What year was that? Did I enter into the program? 2015, oh my gosh, wow. It’s gonna be 10 years next year. That is wild. What sitting over here? Like, oh, it wasn’t that long ago. No Kasey it’s almost a decade ago. So entered into my program then, and I was originally just interested in health and fitness generally, but also was pursuing a psychology undergraduate degree, and was really, really starting to fall in love with strength training and nutrition and all this stuff just for myself, sort of just as a personal hobby.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
And with that, I really started to take a look at a lot of my peers and other people. And I obviously knew that the majority of the world has a hard time sticking to exercise and nutrition. And I was having a very hard time, because I was recognizing how much it was doing for myself, for my life, for everything, how much I was enjoying it. And I could not wrap my head around why more people weren’t, why more people were not taking this path that I had, like, felt like I stumbled upon and, like, found a gold mine, right? Being a psychology student at the time, I was really thinking of it from that perspective too. Like, there’s got to be something else going on here, like, psychologically. So when I decided to really pursue this route and, like, try to answer some of these questions surrounding why people aren’t doing this more, I started to look at various PhD programs, master’s programs, just like, what is out there?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Where can I, like, actually spend some time learning this? I, at the time, had already been doing undergraduate research too, so I knew I liked research. This is where I came across the mindset lab at NC State, Dr. Jenny Burnett, who became my PhD advisor, was doing research on mindset, and she had recently done some work on how the American Medical Association labeled obesity as a disease and what that meant for people’s mindsets about disease and therefore their health and fitness behaviors. And I was like, wow, that is so. How interesting, like, how someone perceives something can make a difference in how often they exercise and how healthy they eat? No way. So I applied there. Interviewed. Also just fell in love with Raleigh, North Carolina. So that was really easy to leave Minnesota, leaving the winters behind was actually very appealing. And yeah, found myself there. Fell in love with the world of mindset science very quickly. And yeah, it’s kind of interesting. It’s almost like mindset Science found me really not the other way around.

Steph Gaudreau
Yeah, it sounds like you took sort of the things that you were really interested in, and followed your curiosity. And I think no matter if people are thinking about getting into school, going back to school, or just learning something on their own that really piques their interest, like follow up, follow those threads, that’s so valuable. When it comes to people listening to this podcast, we have a mixture. We have people who are out there lifting weights, you know, they’re trying to be fit. They’re trying to include this in their life. We have coaches also who who listen to this show. So I want to focus a little bit first on sort of, I don’t know what we’re going to call these people. We’ll call them the lifters, right? They’re out there doing their thing. Sometimes I feel like there’s, there’s two sides to this coin.

Steph Gaudreau
On one side, people are like, You know what? I just, just give me the strategies. I just want a strategy. I just want the right nutrition plan. I just want the right lifting plan and the perfect workout schedule. You know, I don’t need this mindset stuff like, I just need to focus on the implementation. And then we also have other folks who are like, you know, I realize I’m constantly self-sabotaging. Like, I know, why am I not doing it? Or I just can’t find the motivation. So I’m wondering if we can kind of say a little bit about maybe both of those, those groups of people, first, the folks who are sort of convinced that they just need the perfect plan and that is going to be the key, that they don’t the mindset piece isn’t even a thing. Like, why? Why are we even wasting our time on this?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Oh, good question. And like, I’m sure we could probably put this on a spectrum right? So we’re looking at two different sides of things, and then people kind of can find themselves falling somewhere in between, or more towards the right versus the left. So everyone listening definitely tries to think, like, where on that spectrum do you really feel like you fall? And with that said, so the people who are like, yeah, just tell me what to do. We’ve heard that, that saying so so many times. And I’m sure people listening are going, Yeah, I’ve definitely said that before. And I think, you know, there’s something to be said if, if someone’s tuning in right now and they’re like, I’ve been doing this for like, a decade, I really consider myself an exerciser, someone who has made this part of the lifestyle.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
You may not need a ton of mindset work around your health and fitness behaviors that said you may need it in other areas, in which case, everything that we’re talking about could be applied to that however, there are an entire other subset of people who are in this space of I just need someone to tell me what to do. Just give me the perfect plan. I just need to find that one. You know, it’s the golden ticket plan that is perfect for me, like, the Goldilocks plan for me. And like, that’s gonna be the thing that works, like, that’s finally I will arrive there. You know, what’s unfortunate is that so many people, especially women, just spend, like, decades of their life trying to find that perfect plan, and then they look back and they’re like, how am I still not there yet, and that can get really, really frustrating, and a big part of that is mindset and behavior change.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
And of course, yes, the the specific nutrition and training methodologies that you use, you probably do need to find something that you enjoy and then like, works for your schedule and actually fits the goals that you’re looking for. For sure, that’s still a component. I don’t think we need to, like, turn a blind eye to all of that as well. But when it comes to mindset, behavior change, psychology, it really, really is sort of like the foundation, the base of the pyramid, if you will. And if that’s not being paid attention to, if you feel like I just keep hopping from one coach or one program or one plan to the next? Like, I would really, really encourage you to say, take some time to think about where things are actually maybe going wrong.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Like, what does that look like? Is it a consistency issue? Is it a lack of interest or enjoyment, which maybe can get into intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation here, and how that plays a role? So really thinking psychologically, what is tripping you up here? Let’s just like for all intents and purposes, like, humor me for a second. Let’s pretend it has nothing to do with exercise and nutrition. What do you think might be going on here? Like, what is coming up for you? And everyone usually has some sort of answer to that. Again, whether they’re like, Oh, it feels like consistency or motivation, or again, I’m getting in my own way, or I’m just like, so tired all the time. You know, there’s probably something else going on here that we could then address, likely, from a mindset perspective.

Steph Gaudreau
Yeah, that’s huge. And I was, um. As soon as I was describing these sort of two groups of people, I was like, I know that in the back of her mind, Kasey Jo’s probably like, this is an interesting binary, and can we put it, can we put this on a spectrum? Yeah, exactly.

Steph Gaudreau
But yeah, I think that’s super helpful. And you know, you mentioned that there are people who have been doing stuff for years like they’re a little bit more advanced or further along, and I see that happen a lot with specifically people who tend to listen to this podcast, they tend to be women in their, you know, say, 40s, 50s, and they’re kind of going through this season of life where maybe stuff worked for a really long time. It had a really great, you know, their continuity was super great. Whatever they were doing was really working for where their life was at. And then, you know, perimenopause, or just midlife challenges in general, start to fall like dominoes, and people can kind of lose their foundation a little bit.

Steph Gaudreau
They kind of lose their sense of groundedness. So I think that for the listeners of this show, what you brought up is definitely applicable, right? Hey, we could have had a lot of this continuity, but sometimes seasons change in your life, and different things are going to come up and challenge you. So, you know, it could be time to kind of go back and readdress some of those mindset things that are coming up. So there was that. And then sort of the second group of people who, like you said you’re there. They’re the folks who are like, you know, maybe I’m not feeling super excited by this training, or I’m getting in my own way, right, self-sabotage, or I seem to lack motivation. What insights might you have for those folks in terms of starting to get a handle on some of the mindset stuff? Because I feel like it can be a bit of this, like, Oh, I’ve got to figure out my mindset before I do anything else and actually participate in things. So what guidance do you have for them?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yeah, oh, that last piece of I feel like the phrase or the saying might be, I need to wait till I like, feel good, or I feel motivated before I actually, like, hire a coach, or I actually dive headfirst into this program. And that’s a really unfortunate spot to be in, for sure. And like, what comes up for me is that there is likely an underlying fixed mindset there. Because if you’re keeping yourself from starting something, it’s likely, because you’re you feel like you’re going to fail, that you actually don’t think you can be successful. Because once you get started, then it becomes inevitable, right, that you’re going to fail if that’s what’s in the back of your mind.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
And so instead, we try to play this game with ourselves, of like, oh, well, once I have the motivation, or once I’m feeling better, or once, you know, I have XYZ ducks in a row, then I can do that. But really, what you’re just doing is pushing off, actually starting. And it just makes me wonder. I want more people to really spend time thinking like, really, what is the worst that could happen if you get started, and yeah, the worst that can happen is that you fail, or you gain the weight back, or you try, and then you’re not successful, and then you come back to square one, but Square One is where you are right now. So literally, the worst-case scenario is just where you are right now.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
So the worst you can do is try to potentially be successful and level up, get to this next spot, this place, this outcome that you’re looking to achieve, worst case scenario, you’re literally where you are now. So I don’t really see that there’s much to lose here, honestly. And I think if more people were to take some time to really think about that, they would recognize, like, okay, like, there’s, there’s no reason I shouldn’t at least try. But with all of these things, with self-sabotage, all-or-nothing, thinking, fixed mindset, self-limiting beliefs, like so much of this stuff, honestly, just falls underneath the umbrella of mindset and needs to tackle some of that. And like, what I was just saying before, you are likely holding yourself back.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
And a lot of these things are happening because you have some little voice in the back of your head saying that you’re not good enough, you’re not going to be capable of doing this. You’ve never been able to do it in the past. You’re not the type of person to be able to do this, and it could be a very quiet voice. And I think that’s where it’s kind of like a misconception too, is that it should be really obvious if you have a fixed mindset. But if you’ve been in this place for a long time, you’ve been thinking this way and had this lens for a long time, you may have no idea. You may think like, no, I really do try things, and like, I’m I’ve tried so many different diets, and I’ve hired different people. Like, I clearly have a growth mindset, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that you do. So yeah, that’s what, that’s what I’ll say about that.

Steph Gaudreau
Yeah, it’s great for people to kind of hear how these things can be simmering for them, or sort of some of the misconceptions that can be happening in and amongst mindset, things like fixed mindset. In fact, before we started recording this, we were talking about our podcasts, respectively, and I was talking about putting mine on YouTube, and how recording solo episodes, especially knowing that they’re going up on YouTube, has really made me be more self-critical of the way I speak, the value that I’m giving people, because I see other people who are these amazing YouTube content creators and. Everything is so scripted and perfect and, you know, high production value. And Kasey was like, I don’t know that sounds like maybe it could be a bit of a fixed mindset thing. And I was like, damn.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Immediately called out, we’re on the call for two minutes.

Steph Gaudreau
Yeah. And, you know, it was, but it was one of those things where one of my sort of patterns of thought in that case, has been that, you know, like, YouTube is a struggle. It’s really hard for me. And I have been not recording episodes this summer, partly to take a break because we’re 400 and, you know, almost 30-something episodes into this podcast life, but because I’m like, oh, like, the amount of perfection that I’m going to have to aim for it’s so high, it just, it feels like such an ask. It’s going to be such a lot of effort that I’ve, I’ve kind of taken some time off of recording for that reason. So I was like, yes, okay, here we go.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yeah. Super interesting. Because yeah, then it becomes, obviously, please take a break. You so deserve it. But at the same time, I want everybody else to, kind of like, use this as an example in their lives, where, if something wasn’t going to be, quote, unquote perfect, or the way that they really envisioned it, that they just said, like, fuck it. I won’t do it anyway. And if that’s maybe a little bit of what’s happening for you. But again, it sounds like, like, okay, 400 plus episodes like, Please breathe. Please, please don’t, um, please do take a break.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
But yeah, so many people are in that, that space and like perfectionism, for sure, can fall underneath that, that fixed mindset umbrella, too. And it’s funny because I definitely feel that as well okay, if I’m gonna do the podcast, it’s also gonna go on YouTube. I want to have it. I want to, I bought a camera, you know, I need to set up a corner in my office for this because it’s gonna go on YouTube. I want it to go on YouTube, I want it to look nice, and then I want to be able to turn it into reels. I need to be able to, you know, slice this seven different ways. And I’m sure there’s going to come a time when I can’t do that one one week, and I may just have to sit in front of my microphone, and it won’t be perfect. And in order to carry on, that’s the way it’s going to have to look. And get over that this is, this is the vision, you know, and how important it is really to just stay consistent, even if it’s not exactly the way that you thought it was going to be.

Steph Gaudreau
Absolutely the things that we talk to our clients about all the time with, hey, you know, chaining might, might not be perfect this week, but how can we do something? And, you know, sometimes we need those reminders for ourselves in different areas of life, which I really appreciated. You brought that up. One of the things that you mentioned, and is really important is sort of how people can collect evidence for or against like that supports or does not support a particular, maybe pervasive or repetitive, negative thought that they’re having, so, like a self-limiting belief or something of that nature.

Steph Gaudreau
What happens? And how do you help people when they come up to a self-limiting belief, where they’re like But see, I have all this evidence of how I’ve tried in the past, you know, I’ve tried this workout plan, and that workout plan, and I went to this coach and that coach, and, you know, tried this diet and that diet, and so they seem like they have a lot of evidence that this stuff isn’t going to work now because it hasn’t worked in the past. How would you help that person? What might be a mindset strategy or a way to sort of make some inroads into actually making a change?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yeah, yeah, good one. And what comes to mind right away, and you’ll remember this from the health mindset coaching certification, is it’s actually a bit of an exercise that came from cognitive behavioral therapy, and with that, we are essentially weighing the evidence for and against a repetitive negative thought. Doesn’t have to be repetitive. It really can be used at any time. And this, again, can go outside health and fitness as well. And with this exercise, the first step is actually to look for the evidence to make that thought true. So if you have this thought that I’m not going to be successful, I’m not going to lose the weight and keep it off, I’ve tried so many things in the past, like literally and like, it’s, it’s so true, right?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
I have definitely. I’ve worked with women who have been dieting on and off for like, two decades. They’ve tried literally every different diet methodology under the sun, so 100% you have some evidence to show that you can’t be successful. And I think that there, this is going to sound a little bit counterintuitive, but there is something to be said with just being honest and saying, like, this has been my track record, and it ain’t looking too hot, right? And that is the evidence that you actually have to support the fact that you won’t be successful, and that is valid.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
And I don’t want you to just like pretend that that doesn’t exist, because you’re just going to feel frustrated with that because it does, it does exist, and you’re having the feelings that you’re having and thoughts that you’re having and beliefs that you’re having about not being successful for a reason, and that’s likely the biggest reason is that you haven’t gotten to where you want to go yet with all of these different like trial and error ring methodologies throughout the years, throughout the decades, potentially but big but is that the next step is looking at the evidence against that thought. So what evidence do you have that you?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Lies in the face of this idea that you’re not ever going to be successful. You’re not going to lose the weight and keep it off, you’re not going to have this healthy lifestyle that you’re looking for, whatever it may be. And for people who are maybe now working with a new coach, and they’re working through this exercise because they went through the certification like Steph did, and they may be thinking to their self, well, you know, I’ve never worked with a coach like Steph before. I’ve never worked with someone who has a background in like, mindset and health behavior change. So like, this is already feeling very different than anything I’ve tried before.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Or maybe you’ve literally never worked with a human and you’ve just tried, you know, 30-day quick fixes, 21-day that. So now actually having a support system and accountability that’s different, you know? Or it might be I’m in an entirely different place in my life now than I was when I tried all those things in the past. So really, it just becomes this, like, ongoing list of how things are different, and you literally cannot compare it to those past things. There’s likely some other stuff involved too, like, maybe sure you’ve tried a lot of stuff in the past, but it’s all been overly restrictive, and this time, you’re actually taking a flexible approach.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
So you have no idea if this one will work this time because it’s so different than everything you’ve tried before. So just kind of trying to, like, dig up all of that stuff that, again, flies in the face of some of those beliefs. And then from there, you can start to think, Okay, I’ve got evidence for evidence against what is actually going on here, like, what is the most accurate depiction of this thought or this belief? And in this case, you know, for the examples that we’re using here, it might be, I have had a really hard time in the past. Things have not worked for me in the past. However, the things that I’m trying now cannot even be compared to what I’ve done before. I’m also older, I’m wiser. I’m in a different place in my life, where things are a little bit more secure, and generally, I feel a little bit more optimistic than I ever have before.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
So with that said, I can’t really compare, but I do have a little bit of hesitancy. Doesn’t that just already feel, so much better, because it’s just more true, and that’s that’s all it is? Is more true. And then the next step you can kind of go to is like, Okay, well, let’s really unpack how this feels differently and like, what’s going to happen next, based on where we just got to with that entire conversation, that thought process, working through the evidence for and evidence against. So it really even, even me working through this hypothetical example, like, Man, I feel better.

Steph Gaudreau
Absolutely. Yeah, that’s super helpful. And I think it’s going to help both, you know, people who are trying to make a change in coaches as well. You know, one of the things I super appreciate learning from the program and just kind of going through things is, sort of how to not just take one approach. So for example, if we’re only focusing on the evidence against a particular like, here’s why I can’t make change. The flip side to that would be assuming everything’s always going to go well, one of the things that I do so often with my clients is have them do things like implementation intentions or really thinking about mental contrasting.

Steph Gaudreau
You know, what happens when things aren’t going to work out? And there’s people, Oh, but isn’t that kind of calling into existence what I don’t want to happen? So now that we’re kind of listed, kind of transitioned into the coaches, I guess, who are listening to this, like, when you’re working with a client, and you’re going to maybe ask them to make a plan for well, here’s your plan a but what happens when that doesn’t work? What are you going to do?

Steph Gaudreau
Or, you know, what is going to get in your way? How do you help people with that? So they’re not going to think, I’m just putting, you know, doubts in my client’s mind, or I’m going to, you know, they’re going to think, I’m not going to help them, because I’m already anticipating with them that stuff’s not going to happen the way we want it to go. So how do you help people work through that? From the coaching side?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Oh yeah, that’s a really good question, because you know what comes up for me too, is that this is where there is a difference between, like, the manifestation, law of attraction, type of space, and actual mindset research and behavior change research. Because I do believe, and no manifestation experts. So forgive me if I’m wrong here. I do believe that a lot of that woo, woo space is like, let’s not even go there. Like, don’t plant the seed otherwise, like, if you start thinking about it and spending time focusing there, ruminating about it, all you’re going to do is call it into existence, which I do think, you know there’s something to be said.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Like, if you’re overly focusing on something, if that’s where your focus is, like, Yes, more of that’s likely going to come to you. You’re going to you’re going to notice more of it, even if you didn’t notice it before, you know. So there’s something to be said for that. But at the same time, the research really supports when it comes to goal pursuit specifically, and this is, like, the big difference between mental contrasting, which is what you were talking about, and visualization. Where is this like, just visualizing the good outcomes, which can be really helpful? You’re about to, like, step on the court and have, like, a, I’m not a sports person, so I always try to do sports analogies, and then it’s just never worse. But you’re trying to, yeah, shoot, shoot your shot, you know, on the court, or, honestly, like, get up on stage and, like, public speak or something like that.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Visualizing yourself being successful can be really good because it helps bring down anxiety. Like, kind of brings you back to a baseline, calms you, like, turns on that parasympathetic activity if you can, like, visualize yourself being successful, but when we’re talking about behavior change and, like, longer-term goal pursuit, just visualizing the outcome, just manifesting whatever that looks like, is not that helpful. And this is according to the research. And what is more helpful is too short. Do all of that. Please. Do all of that. Then also, again, kind of bringing it back to reality, and thinking, Well, what is inevitably going to get in my way? Like, let’s talk about the barriers. Let’s talk about the challenges. Let’s talk about what happens when you have a setback. And this is where you’re saying, like, clients might be like, Oh my God, I don’t want to, I don’t want to, I don’t want to think about those things.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
I just want to think about, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel, and how everything’s going to be amazing. But the reality is, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows all of the time when you’re working towards something new and challenging and different and trying to make changes in your life that you haven’t been able to do before, and recognizing that things are going to be hard helps you have a different lens. So we’re kind of back to the mindset perspective here of if those things happen, that’s okay, that’s expected. That’s part of the plan, in fact. So like, let’s talk about when those things come up, so we can together, you know, work through them. Come together, figure it out not you don’t have to feel like you have to brush it under the rug, or not tell me about it, or feel like a failure, because that’s not the case.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
This is actually exactly what’s to be expected. So it kind of like brings down that scary stuff into a no. This is what we’re we’re actually kind of planning for. This is something that is to be expected along the way to your goals, so you can get more objective with it, and plan for it. And then when it comes up, it’s not a surprise. You don’t feel like a failure. It doesn’t feel like anything out of the norm. It’s just like, Oh, yep, there it is. What do we do about this? Right? And if you’re only focused on the big, shiny outcome at the end, when failure comes up, when setbacks, obstacles, challenges arise, it’s going to feel like, Oh, well, that’s not the big shiny thing that I’m looking for.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
So I clearly did something wrong, or maybe that big shiny thing’s not for me. After all, maybe I’m not actually capable of reaching that big shiny thing because I’m hitting all these obstacles along the way. So you can see where your mindset can shift very drastically, and then the chances of you actually being successful in the long run, like which, which path do you think is more likely to help you get there?

Steph Gaudreau
Super, super helpful. And so I think this is a good segue into talking more about how you help coaches. So I know you have part of your coaching business working with clients on their health and fitness behavior change, right? So some of the things we were talking about, but also you have a certification program for coaches. So I’m really curious, if you can tell people, why did you create this for coaches? Like, what were some of the chatter that you would observe, or some of the things that you would see coaches come in with, in terms of stumbling blocks with working with their own clients that you decided, hey, I want to put what I know into a system for coaches to actually get better at serving their clients?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yeah, yeah. And this actually, like, it really originally started back when I was going back to the mindset lab at NC State. Um, during that time, I had mentioned that I really fell in love with health and fitness for myself, and I actually became a nutrition coach. So I started my PhD and became a nutrition coach sort of at the same time. And what was really cool for me is that I got to have this very unique experience where, over the years, I was doing research, I was quite literally doing research in the lab, and then leaving and then going to the gym that I worked at and coaching people on their nutrition.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
So I actually did a lot of in-person meetings for that. I was watching myself take what I was learning at school in the lab, when within the research that I was doing, and applying it in my one-on-one coaching relationships. And I really got to thinking how this is not anywhere, you know, not. There are not very many health and fitness coaches that are doing what I’m doing. And I’m not expecting people to go get PhDs and then become nutrition coaches, you know. But it really started to make me think like this, education in this training is not really anywhere to be found. And if it is, it’s like one or two weeks out of 30, you know, in a nutrition certification coaching certification program. So I really was starting to get into this, this headspace of, like, how do I get this into the hands of more coaches?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
And I was able to see, just like, so clearly how helpful it was and how bringing what I knew about. Behavior change and mindset into a coaching capacity, those people were adhering so much better. They were sticking around so much longer. They were seeing so much more success. I was enjoying the experience more as a coach because of all of those things. We were better, and had better relationships, like it was just night and day. Difference between using some of those tools and not and so when I wrapped up my PhD, I really thought that I was probably going to stay and keep doing research, and I wasn’t just going to be a nutrition coach my entire life after getting a PhD in psychology.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
But then I kept having this pull of there’s something here. There’s something I want to do with this. And so I actually did get the corporate run around from a few different larger companies where I was planning to do research on their science teams. And it’s funny because I feel like that, that’s how the universe, just like, worked itself out. I was so upset and so annoyed that this was happening, but then it allowed me to really take a chance on myself, my coaching business, and then also launched this certification program for coaches.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
And haven’t looked back since it’s been four years, five years now, um, and, yeah, so that’s kind of what drew me into it originally, was honestly my own experience, and then obviously seeing what I can see from, like a social media perspective, and what coaches are talking about, and what’s funny, I actually recorded an episode yesterday that I reviewed a couple of different comments from coaches on threads and what they were saying about their clients, and kind of like, picked it apart from a mindset perspective, and it’s still everywhere, you know like one of them was someone had commented, why would you ever hire A coach and pay them all capital letters, pay them, have them deliver you a program, and then you don’t do the program, and then you get complaints when you’re not seeing success. And I’m just like, oh my god, guys, come on. Like, there’s so much more to this, right?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
So I’m still seeing a lot of it today. Literally recorded an episode yesterday about this stuff, but I also like, I can get really angry very quickly, but at the same time, I’m also very understanding that this stuff is just not available. This is not the norm to have coaches understand client psychology and mindset and behavior change. You know nutrition and exercise really well, and that’s important, but it’s going to fall on deaf ears if you don’t understand, again, the bottom of the pyramid, right?

Steph Gaudreau
Exactly. You’re mentioning seeing this on threads, and this idea of a, you know, a client paying and then not participating in the program, and then being upset by, you know, lack of results. What are some of the other, I guess, kind of maybe common issues or thoughts with coaches of why they’re struggling with their clients that you see a lot, that you are trying to address through HMCC? So like, what are coaches saying to each other in their DMS or things like that, or even posting on social media threads? Is wild, by the way, I don’t know. I have to, I’ve had to back away. But what are some of the other…

Kasey Jo Orvidas
I can’t spend more than like, 10 minutes on there before I get so frustrated.

Steph Gaudreau
Yeah, exactly. Some of the other sort of mindset things with coaches about working with their clients that you think we really need to improve upon,

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yeah, yeah. There’s definitely, there’s definitely a few big ones, and kind of just like following along the lines of, yeah, like, what are coaches saying to each other in their DMS, or potentially posting for the world to see and meet a screenshot. Apparently, another theme that I see a lot is the phrase, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink. Like, that sort of perspective of, I’m giving you a plan. I’m doing all of this stuff for you. I’m here for you.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
But like, I can’t show up at your door and, like, take you to the gym, or I can’t walk into your kitchen and help you meal prep or get you off the couch, which, like, obviously, right, obviously. But that doesn’t mean, and this is kind of what I talked about in the podcast episode too. That doesn’t mean that we can’t be sure we can lead the horse to water. We can’t make them drink the water. We can’t show up at their house type of thing, but we can sweeten the water. We can tell them a little bit more about, like, why the water is valuable. Maybe talk to them a little bit more about why they’re struggling so much to drink the water.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
We can use some tools to help them stop self-sabotaging, and getting away from drinking the water. You know, there’s so much stuff between the actual water and the horse or the client in this case, and I don’t need to go too far with that analogy, um, and so that kind of comment, though, those comments in general, of like, well, I can’t do everything for you. You know, don’t expect me to be the therapist, or don’t expect me to be your parent or drill sergeant or whatever? Yes, that’s true. And there’s an entire other part of this conversation that there actually is a lot that you can do as the coach. And to me, this is a lot of just like trying to pass off the responsibility and say, Listen, I gave you the things that you came here, that you paid for.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Now it’s up to you to make it happen. And I really don’t think that makes it happen. The piece should fully fall on the client. And so many coaches assume that it should, like, I didn’t need you the plan. You agreed to the plan. We had this exchange of finances, energy, time, whatever. Now it’s on you, like, let me know if you need to, like, substitute an exercise or something, right? And the reality is, most people need coaches because they are struggling with consistency. They don’t feel motivated, they can’t stick to the plan. So they are looking to a coach to hire a coach to help them with those things. They know they need to exercise, they know they need to eat. Well, those things, yes, like a specific, you know, macro split for someone or a personalized training program is really helpful.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
But the biggest issue that I’m seeing here is that coaches are looking to fill their rosters with easy clients who are already motivated, are going to stick to the plan, but that is not what most people are. And so it becomes this weird predicament that coaches are looking for people that are already motivated, and the reality is, like we are getting all of these unmotivated people that we actually need to know how to help and have those tools to do so so that’s like a really, really big theme that I see coming up over and over again, which, yeah, like, it’d be great if everyone on your roster just checked in on time and did what they were supposed to do, and they didn’t require a lot of hand holding. But that is not that.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
That is nowhere near the majority of people that are looking for coaching help. So instead of like, saying like, Oh, I’m only going to hire these or bring on these clients that are this way, what if, just humor me for a second, what if it looks so much different? Instead, those people who say I am struggling with consistency, I’m feeling unmotivated, I keep self-sabotaging, and you can go amazing. I know exactly how to help you the difference there, and not just the difference for helping more people, because you’re going to be able to help more people because that is the majority of the people, but also the difference for, like, your confidence in your coaching practices, and being able to stand out from other coaches who don’t have the ability to help people with that and continue to shy away and push those people away. And also just what it means for, like client retention and like your bottom line, like we’re talking more money at the end of the day in your coaching business, you know. So anyway, as you can tell, I could go on and on about this, but that’s what I’ll say for now.

Steph Gaudreau
Yeah, I remember a moment during HMCC, where you were talking about, you know, again, sort of coaches who are like, Oh, I have these clients, like they’re always ghosting, or they’re just never successful, or these sorts of things. And one of the very first things you had us do was to look at ourselves and our own beliefs, our own fixed mindsets about clients. And I think that was, like, a huge like, oh, wait, I have a responsibility in this too. And like, my own beliefs about things can be making an impact on what’s happening with my clients.

Steph Gaudreau
So that was a huge moment too. I think it’s like, Oh, but wait. Like, where do I have a responsibility in this? And like, what is my own, I approach it from like my client can grow, or is it this is just how they are and how they always will be? That was really, that was kind of a like mic drop moment, I think, for myself and a lot of other people, where I was like, oh, touche, very, very, very good. And that’s one thing I try to check myself on all the time, is sort of, what are, what are the thoughts that I could be bringing into the coaching conversation about a person’s potential for change, and, you know, what is my role, and how does that impact what’s going on with the client? So that’s a big one.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yeah, definitely. And that’s, that’s a place that a lot more coaches I think would benefit from operating from and really taking a second to think, Well, what do I think that uncoachable clients exist? Like, that’s a real question for everyone listening. Like, really think about that and answer it. Because if you were in this perspective of, like, yeah, there are just people that I’m never going to be able to get through. Or my hands are totally tied if people get into that pattern of self-sabotaging. Like, one of those screenshots that I grabbed was a coach saying I had a client that was too needy, and so I, like, fired them from my roster.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
And I’m just sitting here, like, I would be willing to bet that that client is needy and dependent on you because of you and your coaching practices. And so to me, I’m like, that’s not a flex that if there is someone that was too needy, you kicked them off your coaching roster. Instead, I’m thinking, like, you could have kept that client if you had the tools to actually help them. And now I also worry about that person who’s like, wow, this coach fired me because I had too many questions, or I, like, didn’t really know what was going on, and I thought that they were supposed. To be my support system, and now you’re breeding a fixed mindset in this person that, like, not even a coach can help them, like, oh my god, this is so problematic. Oh, yeah, so it’s my fault there.

Steph Gaudreau
Man, yeah, absolutely. So I can definitely, you know, coming from having not done HMCC, and then kind of being on the other side of that and continually having to practice these, these skills, right? It’s not just like a one-and-done, but so, so helpful. I really appreciate you talking about that for the coaches out there too, and also people that could be clients in a relationship with a coach, right? They have a they have a coach, and they’re like, Oh, that’s right.

Steph Gaudreau
Like, that’s interesting. I see where my coach really does, you know, treat me like I am an expert in my life, and ask me what I think and what am I willing to do, and like all of these things, rather than just saying, you know, I can’t, I can’t help you, ask me too many questions. Or, yeah, so it’s, it’s super interesting for, I hope, also clients to help evaluate, sort of the support that they are getting and to understand what, what does go into making all this change happen, because it’s a lot.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
When they go to hire someone right? Like, these are probably not things that a lot of people are thinking about when you are evaluating like, oh, who do I want to spend the next six to 12 months working with on my health and fitness journey? Ask these types of questions. If you say, like, how are you going to help me navigate self-sabotage in my mindset? If they don’t have an answer to that. And it’s not just like, oh, like, we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. It’s totally different, depending on the person, like, you’ll be able to snuff stuff out really quickly. So that is, like, a good way to evaluate as well.

Steph Gaudreau
Absolutely. Well, thank you for spending the time with us. I would love to have you tell people, especially from the coaching aspect, like, if they want to know more about HMCC, or any of the other resources that you have, like the coaching code. How can they get involved with that?

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yeah, I’m very excited about the Coaching Code. This is a three-part, totally free, no strings attached, workshop, workshop series. Say that 10 times fast, oh my god. And we are starting August 8, and then the 13th and the 15th, and it is live. So you get to spend an hour or so with me in each of those trainings. There is recordings after so if you feel like you can’t make it, no big deal. And again, totally free. So come to that, if you want to get your feet wet, get a better understanding of all of this mindset, behavior change, psychology stuff that we’re talking about, and then at the end of the month, we are opening enrollment to the Health Mindset Coaching Certification (HMCC).

Kasey Jo Orvidas
So it’s a perfect just kind of like segue from the coaching code into HMCC, so you can kind of get a better idea, see if this is really something that’s for you. And then we’re opening doors for four days, like I said, at the end of August. August 19 is the first day, and we will not reopen again until sometime in 2025 so we’re just open a couple times per year. So yeah, as far as links and stuff like that, I’m sure you’ll put them in the show notes for everybody. And otherwise, you can find me on Instagram if you have any questions about this stuff. I’m Coach Kasey Jo Orvidas.

Steph Gaudreau
Awesome. Thanks so much. And I can say I went through the training from last year that was, you know, prior to actually deciding to join HMCC. And it was amazing. You give so much value, and you really do teach so much. And then inside the program isn’t just like, here’s this theory, and, you know, obviously that stuff’s very useful. I mean, did I know what self-determination theory was before? No.

Steph Gaudreau
But then you, you give us such amazing tools and exercises to apply it and to actually practice it, and I think that that is such something that’s so lacking in our information-heavy, you know, just social media landscape and the world that we live in. It’s not just about absorbing the information, certainly like learning that stuff in the evidence base behind it super valuable, but also making coaches practice it right so that we can then feel a little bit more empowered to go and actually use it with clients like I found that that piece of it was extremely helpful and so undervalued, I think, in terms of learning and application. So, yeah, I can’t recommend it highly enough. It was really, really impactful for me. And just really appreciate all the work that you’re doing to help make the world of behavior change a better place, one coach and one client at a time.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yes, that is the goal. And if you can’t tell from this podcast, I am extremely passionate about what I do, and again, really get going on some of these topics. And that is exactly what it looks like inside the program as well.

Steph Gaudreau
Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you so much for being on the show and wish you all luck and success with everything, and thank you for what you’re doing.

Kasey Jo Orvidas
Yes, thank you, Steph.

Steph Gaudreau
All right, my friend, thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope very much that you’ve found it useful, whether you are on the client side or the coaching side, or somebody trying to make a positive change in your life in regard to fitness, nutrition, or your health in general. Hopefully, this episode gave you some insight into maybe your own stumbling blocks, strategies for taking a step forward, or if you’re a coach, how to get better results with your clients.

Steph Gaudreau
Two things, if you’re loving this episode you appreciate, fuel your strength, then hit subscribe over on YouTube and ring the bell for more notifications. Also, hit subscribe on your favorite podcast app that really does help to spread the word about the podcast. Thank you so much for doing that. And of course, I’d love to see you apply for Strength, Nutrition Unlocked. If you are a woman over 40 who’s athletic and trying to improve your strength, muscle, and performance with the application of these concepts, as well as coaching and support, then you can apply at stephgaudreau.com/apply. All right. Thanks so much for listening to this episode, and I will see you next time. Until then, stay strong.

Boost Your Motivation to Train With This w/ Kasey Jo Orvidas | Steph Gaudreau.