MMT50 - 223

Meeting Malkmus - a Pavement podcast

jD and Brian Glaser get together this week on the Pavement Top 50 Countdown. They of course discuss Brian's Pavement origin story and then they reveal and talk about track 23 on the countdown.

Transcript:

Track 1:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.

Track 2:

[0:02] A stone-cold classic. This is the eighth song on our list from Pavement's penultimate album, Bright in the Corners. At 24, it's in. Jamie, what are your initial thoughts about this song? I think I remember really liking it kind of when I, you know, when you buy Bright in the Corners, you put it on, you go through the album, and it feels like a sensible, good closing song. The name kind of gives it away.

Track 1:

[0:30] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band, Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Track 3:

[0:38] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the result, choosing an abacus and a woman named Helen, who frankly looked kind of lost. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week we're joined by Pavement superfan, Brian from New Jersey. Brian, how are you doing, motherfucker? I'm doing alright. How are things in Canada? Things are just dynamite. the sky is bright blue the clouds are nice and fluffy it's sunny you know i'll take sunny even if it's a little bit below zero just uh rather than that gray shit that just you know ruins everything yeah how about you everything's great here yeah it's you know it's uh it's the weekend just getting to hang out i'm getting to talk about pavement yeah that's pretty good right, Well, let's do that then. Let's get your Pavement Origins story.

Track 3:

[1:52] So my Pavement Origins story, I feel like it is the most down-the-middle, ordinary one. But it's also, from listening to your podcast, it's essentially the inverse of yours. Okay. So I was a college radio DJ in the early 90s. And our college radio station, the music director, would call us into his dorm like once a week or once every other week uh all the djs would come in and he would have all of the recent releases and we would hit play and just see what was happening and what we might want to play on our radio shows and stuff like that and i remember.

Track 3:

[2:32] Slanted and enchanted dropping into this gathering and you know he hits play on summer babe um and And it was amazing. You know, I'm also, I'm a drummer, so I'm listening to this. And this great song, one of the hooks is the hi-hats. Yeah, that hi-hat wiggle or whatever you want to call it. What do you call that? I don't know. Wiggles as good as anything. But like, think of another song where like part of the hook is, you know, a little hi-hat flourish. So that blew my mind. And then, you know, Trigger Cut comes right after that. So I went from never hearing of this band to, you know, I'm in my, I'm probably like 19, sitting in a college dorm, listening to Slanted and Enchanted, and I am a billion percent in. Like, it's everything I like.

Track 3:

[3:30] It's everything I love. So, I was then just like, I was there for each record coming out, and I bought them as they came out. And I went to see the Crooked Rain tour, and I saw them on Lollapalooza, and I saw the Brighton the Corners tour. And I think by the time Bright in the Corners came out, I was a music journalist in Philadelphia. And I'm pretty sure I wrote a review of Bright in the Corners for somewhere.

Track 3:

[4:03] I bought Terror Twilight. So I bought all of them when they came out. I did not see – I missed the Terror Twilight show. I went to the other night of the matador anniversary show because the other one was headlined by Yola Tango and they're my number one I don't miss them uh and a buddy of mine went to the other one said that the pavement show that was when he had like the uh Malcolm has had the handcuffs dangling off of his microphone stand to show his displeasure um Um, And then, you know, after that, it just, it went from being a present tense thing to pavement went into past tense and I bought the reissues when they came out. Um, but I wasn't, when they got back together and we're playing in central park, I think my son had just been born. So I didn't go see that, but they were really just kind of a past tense thing for me. And then kind of two additional things happened. The first was the pandemic.

Track 3:

[5:16] And just because of the kind of music guy I am, when we got sent home to work remotely, I listen to music when I work from home and I like to set little projects or parameters for myself to make it interesting. I'll be like, today I'm only going to listen to songs that this drummer is on or whatever I'm going to do. Oh, cool. And since I thought we were just going home for like a month or two, I was like, I'm only going to listen to stuff I have on vinyl. No CDs, no streaming. It's just going to be vinyl. It'll make me stand up every 20 minutes and, you know, it'll just be like a fun little parameter because I have a bunch of vinyl, but it's not the biggest part of my collection. And the only pavement I had on vinyl, I had this extra live LP that Matador sold along with the Bright in the Corner, Nicene Creed's reissue.

Track 3:

[6:20] It's okay. But I also had Terror Twilight, which I had listened to. I bought it on vinyl, I listened to it, and I was like, eh, there's no spiral songs on here. It feels kind of clean. It just didn't connect. But by that time, I was listening to your podcast, and this was the only one that under my rules I could really listen to. So i listened to the shit out of terror twilight you know in 2020 so it had you know it'd been out and somewhere in the back of my head for a while but i really engaged with it um and so now i'm like all in on terror twilight all these years later and you know then they came back for their latter-day reunion shows. And my buddy and I turned 50 as they rolled into Brooklyn. And so we're like, and he lives not far from King's Theater, so we're like, we're going. And we went to one of the King's Theater nights in Brooklyn. And this is like the fourth or fifth time I've seen them. And, and, Suddenly, this was the best I'd ever seen them play.

Track 3:

[7:33] This is what I'm hearing. This is what I'm hearing about 2022. It was amazing. I guess I would describe when I went to those shows during the initial run, everyone was playing their parts as best they could, which was very good, but they were all just kind of doing their part of the band. Yeah. On this tour, they were together. I thought so, too.

Track 3:

[8:26] Enchanted in college when it came out. and we're looking at each other like we couldn't believe that this was the best pavement show we'd ever seen that's amazing it just didn't seem possible um right you know because that's not what reunion tours are for no not typically um and then i'll just add you know as part of my origin story it's been it's made me have a different extension of my origin story listening to you and the other people you have on the podcast who generally seem to have come in around Terror Twilight or even after the initial run.

Track 3:

[9:05] This may sound pretentious or silly or whatever you want to say, but it felt like you're not as invested in the narrative that popped up around Pavement in that initial run and that every record that came out was colored by the Pavement story. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. You know, because I think, especially with like Wowie Zowie Bright in the Corners and Terror Twilight, when those came out, They were part of like a reaction to what had happened the year before with them. And it was hard to listen to those just sort of on their own merits because you were listening to them as part of the narrative.

Track 3:

[9:50] And it's fun, like getting the chance to listen to them, not like that, sort of inspired by the way you're hearing them and your experience with them and the other people that you talk to. And it's really, it's changed my relationship with a lot of the records and a lot of the songs. Oh, wow. Do you have a specific example of a song? Well, I think I'll give an album example instead. The narrative of Bright in the Corners when it came out was, A, they got the shit back together after the wowie-zowie being all over the place. And also, everyone, maybe especially people who are music journalists, were very into the R.E.M. Connection because of the production. So I was sort of talking myself into hearing REM in that record, you know, because I'd heard Unseen Power, The Picket Fence, and I knew that they had REM's producers and all that. So I was like, I listened to it as their REM record. I've never thought of that. That's great. Yeah. Great. Well, and now I can just listen to it as, you know, here's some amazing Spiral Stairs songs and here's the band really playing together. Like that one might be the closest to how they're sounding now.

Track 3:

[11:18] That's a good call. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. So yeah, so that's an example of how it's changed here, getting out of the narrative. I'll also say something that colored my initial run through Pavement, and I don't think I've heard you talk about this before, is when they were at their initial peak, they were this huge and overwhelming influence on like indie rock so like i remember i was at maxwell's the week that crooked rain coming out not seeing pavement but just another band with you know two distorted guitars and a slacky attitude or whatever and in between all their songs they They talked about Crooked Rain.

Track 3:

[12:08] That was their stage banter. It was so... Are you serious? Yeah. It was just when Pavement did something, this small but invested community talked about it. And I remember getting the CD to review from this band called Number One Cup that no one's ever heard of. They didn't last very long. I think they only put out like one or two records. And the first song on the album, I remember kind of digging it, but feeling like it felt really familiar. So I'm playing it a few times. And I realized you could sing the lyrics to Summer Babe to this song. And they were essentially just making Pavement songs. They were completely ripping them off. Well, I don't think they were ripping them off. I think they were influenced too heavily. That's so nice. But that's the thing is like Pavement was this huge influence because-

Track 3:

[13:17] A lot of the other things happening at that time were, strangely enough, when you go back and listen to the Pavement catalog, was a lot noisier than Pavement.

Track 3:

[13:29] Archers of Loaf, Sonic Youth, Super Chunk, all that stuff, those are louder and punkier than Pavement for the most part. I'm not saying Pavement had a clean sound or anything like that. No, but Crooked Rain is pretty straightforward, you know, and then, like you said a moment ago, Bright in the Corners is, I don't understand how that didn't sell a jillion copies, you know? I know. It's such a good record. Not that the other ones aren't, but it's like mainstream good. Yeah i i mean i think my if i'm putting my critic hat on i think the answer to that is they chose the wrong single um stereo is a weird single right um i don't think anyone hearing that would be like get that right on the radio and you know this is my new pop thrill here right maybe start with shady lane yeah uh start with shady lane something like something like that, could have done it, but also I mean, honestly, cut your hair was a fluke, and I think it created this idea that Pavement could have hit singles, and maybe that just wasn't true.

Track 3:

[14:50] That's fair. Do you think it's true? Do you think they could have been a hit singles band?

Track 3:

[14:59] There's just some song every once in a while you hear it's not like father to a sister of thought um like i can see that being in like, like on a tv show like playing in the background near the end of the show and you know they're wrapping things up but no i suppose you're right few and far between there you know there's a There's a few that you can look at and say, okay, yeah, yeah, this has got the makeup of a mainstream hit song. But you're right, not many, because they were doing things that were very different than the mainstream. Very different. Yeah, and I remember going to the Lollapalooza when they were on the main stage. And you've seen the videos of people throwing mud at them and stuff like that. But part of the problem was that stage was just too big for them at that point. They can do it now, but I don't think they were ready for that.

Track 3:

[16:03] And you saw that show, you said, right? Not the one with the mud. I saw them in Camden, New Jersey on the Lollapalooza, you know, on that tour. And was it apparent there as well? Like it just. Yeah. Cause you know, I, I was sitting out on the lawn. It's, you know, it was touring those kinds of sheds where there's the seats up front and then a big lawn in the back and it's a summer day and you got your little pick a a mcbasket and your blanket and all that and it didn't really translate that far back in.

Track 3:

[16:35] A way that you know like cypress hill and sonic youth and even back who were on that tour like it translated into the bigger venue and they didn't wow that is wild stuff and i mean i don't mean that as a criticism no i think it's just you know it was the superpowers they had at the time it was you know it was more intimate um and it was you know again i don't think they had whatever it is that they've gathered up with age wisdom whatever you want to call it at this point where they can go out and you know jam on the hex or whatever for 10 minutes um and really make it work i don't think they had that in their arsenal yet no i suppose you're right.

Track 3:

[17:32] Yeah touring wasn't wasn't their strong strong point you know and yet it was fun and yet every show you saw or every every show that i've ever heard people talk about was amazing you know Because of the venue and because of the context and that good stuff. Yeah. And I mean, it could also be that part of their target audience is, you know, guys like me, guys like you who are, you know, ready to have that rush of emotion from, you know, from the experience that, you know, in our 20s or whatever was just kind of maybe we weren't mature enough for or open enough to. Yes. Yes. Well, should we flip the side here and talk about song number 23? Let's do it. Okay, we'll take a quick break and we'll be back with song number 23.

Track 1:

[18:35] Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening. And now on with a countdown.

Track 3:

[21:47] Well, there it is on the Top 50 Countdown. Song number 23 is the Spiral Stairs Gem, Kennel District. Brian from New Jersey.

Track 3:

[21:59] Give me the goods. This is ridiculously underrated. I'm going to say this one's top five. Well, or I'll caveat that. Either this or Date with Ikea, which in my mind, they're kind of, they're like, fraternal twin songs um you gotta have a spiral song in the top five like the pavement founding documents say this is a band founded by sm and spiral stairs and if that top five is all, coming out of malchemist i think you've done something wrong you know and if you're gonna have a spiral song in the top five i i would do this one um it's it's amazing i mean it was It was a lot of fun on the reunion tour. Yes. And that's, you know, I remember the night I went to King's Theater, they did not play Summer Babe and they did not play Here, but they played Kennel District. And I remember having like my little list of songs in my head that I was going to be bummed if I walked out and they didn't play. And that was one of them. But they tore it up. It was like it was a highlight of the show. Wow. Yeah, that's great.

Track 3:

[23:17] And, you know, one of the things, you know, I mentioned earlier, I'm listening to this a little bit as a drummer. One of the things I hear in the song, and I'm curious if you hear this too, I think it's a Gary drum beat in this tune.

Track 3:

[23:34] Really? Yeah, it's got that little off-kilter stumble. It's not evenly distributed beats. It kind of lurches a little bit as it's going forward. I hear it as Westy playing a Gary beat rather than playing Westy style on this. You know, there's something to that, because in my conversations with Spiral, and then the tracks that ended up, I think, on the Nicene Creators edition, where it's just Gary and Spiral doing songs. Maybe it was around Terror of Twilight time, actually, where it was them doing songs. And, uh...

Track 3:

[24:30] You know scott's always had a a pretty big place in his heart for gary you know so i wonder if you know in in creating the song even he was like westy can you give me something garyish you know yeah that's interesting it's there and you know i think the other reason i i love the song is like even though this is you know halfway through the catalog in in wowie zowie i don't know I know that this would have been completely out of place on the early EPs. So it's got that overdriven driving guitar. It's got the Gary beat. It's got the distorted vocals, but then the sing-along or shout-along refrain that carries you out. Like, it's, you know, if you place this next to, you know, on the same seven inches debris slide, I don't think you'd be like, one of these was recorded many years later, and I can hear it so clearly. You know, I think they're akin. It's got a little bit more sheen, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, but it's like the ingredients and the style are classic pavement rather than ladder pavement or whatever you want to call it. Right, right.

Track 3:

[25:56] Yeah, I think if you have a beat on what it could be about. No, like this. Like any pavement song, too tough, right? Right. It's too tough. And this one is even like I was doing a little internet trolling for the lyrics. Like the internet doesn't even agree what these lyrics are. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, I found, you know, especially the first line of the second verse, you know, I found the one I've got up on my screen right now says, I can't believe she's married to Roe, like fish egg Roe. I have too. And there's no way it's that. And I remember just in Googling a little, I found a couple other theories, but I find that hard to believe that's the lyric. Yeah, me too.

Track 3:

[26:53] Maybe that's why he's so incredulous. You can't believe it. Yeah, maybe. I also know that there's a lot of songwriters, and you've talked to Spiral a lot, so maybe he's given you some more insight into his process. But I know when you hear from a lot of songwriters, they talk about laying down the track first and just kind of putting some nonsense sounds or lyrics over it. And then some people will sit and write something very considered and serious when they go to do the lyrics. And then some people be like, oh, I almost said the word robe there. I guess I'll just stick with it. I wonder if that's what happened here.

Track 3:

[27:37] Yeah, because it's an interesting song because you're right. I don't quite know what it's about, but it makes me feel something. Because of the chorus. Um whatever you want to call it why didn't i ask why didn't i ask why didn't i ask and then going out there's something really like almost painful about that question you know like you really feel for the protagonists here like yeah what the fuck man why didn't you ask and what were you asking about and why is it important to you and all the rest but at the very least can Can you answer me the question? Why didn't you ask? Right. And then the delivery with the guitars, the beat, the buildup, you're not only singing along about regret, but you're doing it with your fist in the air. You're just like, you're all jacked up about regret. And there's nothing not to love about this song. Yeah. It's a good one.

Track 3:

[28:47] And I'm kind of curious. Chris, I know you've talked to Spiral a lot. Based on the sort of relationship you've built up with him over the last few years, do you have a sense of what he goes for in his songwriting, like how he's expressing himself? Yeah.

Track 3:

[29:09] It's really changed, I think. I think that his vocal has become much more of a tool. He used to sort of sing with that almost break, almost that pubescent break when he sang, and now his voice is sharp. It is right on. So I think he takes advantage of that a little bit more when writing a song, not lyric wise, but when he's writing a song in general, like he can be more melodic. And that's nice. Like that medley attack is a great record. It's a really good record. I'm going to listen to it today because it's really good. And then of course i i just can't help but draw the parallel between terror twilight and let it be.

Track 3:

[30:02] With paul and john completely shutting george out of the process and then george turns around and comes out with all all things must pass and it's holy shit it's a double record filled with some of the best songs you've ever heard and he had that in him and spiral came out with psoi and And while it's not all things must pass, it's holy shit, you were sitting on all these songs and you couldn't put one on fucking Terror of Twilight? You know? Yeah. And you know, I think one of the reasons I didn't connect with Terror of Twilight at the beginning is...

Track 3:

[30:39] Spiral to me is that the actual analogy i would use is lee ronaldo in sonic youth oh okay when you have those sonic youth records like you know obviously thurston and kim are the marquee and core sounds in there but like daydream nation without eric's trip and without hey joni it's not the masterpiece that it is without those and the lee ronaldo songs like Like they fit in the band, but they're a little off to the side of the rest of it. And, you know, it's super melodic and it's fun, but it's not what Thurston and Kim do for the rest of the record. And you're always like, when that, you know, when Moat or Disappearer pops up, I think those are his two on Goo.

Track 3:

[31:29] When those pop up on Goo, you're like, yeah, here we go. We're hearing Disappearer now. Now um did do i have that right that disappears the you're asking the wrong dude i'll have to do a sonic youth uh podcast at some point i mean initially that was my like i had a blind spot with early pavement i had a blind spot with the eps um like the three eps and so i thought well i'll do a podcast where i listen to each ep and you know talk about the ep and i was like well why don't i just do it like song by song you know and then that way i get to listen to everything thing and that's that was the genesis of this little beast yeah and i think you know with sonic youth you'd have the same experience where you know you're moving along and it's the songs you're used to and then this this gem pops up that's you know of a different color and a different tone a different palette and i think that's what spiral brings to these pavement records yeah i would agree with that and the shows like when you get that spiral break when kennel district comes out or date with ikea you're like yeah fuck yeah here we go we're doing this now yeah and we'll get back to that that malchmus thing but it's a great um like i i don't want to say interlude because that's not maybe it's like a great counterpoint.

Track 3:

[32:50] Yeah there's a bit of yin and yang right yeah absolutely sorry well uh i'll just repeat that my dogs are both in here yeah there's a bit of yin and yang right yeah absolutely, and you know being a fan of the Spiral songs doesn't make you less of a Pavement fan or even less of a Malchemist fan it's just, he's one of the main ingredients again it's this band was started by SM and Spiral Stairs so without him it's not Pavement right, I couldn't yeah I couldn't agree more.

Track 3:

[33:27] Well, Brian from New Jersey, do you have anything that you would like to plug or discuss with people on the World Wide Web? I guess the only thing I'll plug, I was playing drums in a band here in New Jersey that is now defunct. It went away with the pandemic, but we have stuff up on Bandcamp and everywhere. It's called Diecast Cars.

Track 3:

[33:52] Diecast Cars. Yeah, like the toy cars for kids. It would appeal very much appeal to fans of pavement we are noisy and a little sloppy but a little poppy and a little rocky and all that kind of stuff and uh the the guitars are loud and and we also have the one of the guitar players you know didn't write as much as the other but he's like he's the spiral the ronaldo of a die-cast cars and that he's got you know two or three things in the what we have on the band camp page and their gems um you know not not to take away from the other guy but you know when they come up you're like okay we're getting we're getting into a different frequency for a few minutes and then we'll we'll go back to that other one cool well check out diecast cars on band camp everybody it's been great talking to to you today brian from new jersey uh you've you've got some wild theories and um some theories that i can actually cleave on to and uh kennel district again at number 23 so this is a lot of fun man too low a lot of fun so uh take care and uh we'll talk to you soon brian and everybody else wash your goddamn hands thanks.

Track 1:

[35:17] For listening to meeting malchus a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you if you've got questions or concerns.

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