FS71 Chapter Chat with Jan Lelie IAF Netherlands

Facilitation Stories

This episode is one of our quarterly “Chapter Chats” where Helene and Nikki talk to a member of the leadership team from another IAF Chapter. Today’s guest is Jan Lelie, founder of IAF Netherlands. Outside their IAF role Jan is a facilitator with a background in experimental physics.

Key topics from the conversation include:

• How Facilitation and the role of Facilitators has changed over time

• What Jan has learned and continues to learn from other facilitators

“you have to practice what you preach. When I go to an IAF conference, I will do a workshop of myself and I also work with other facilitators to see and to learn from each other”

• How the IAF Netherlands Chapter was established

“ we wanted to have a certification process, and at that time, it was only in English… ” we were the first organization which offered certification in their mother tongue.”

• Topics and themes of past IAF Netherlands conferences

• The IAF Netherlands Initiative: ‘diverging conversations through facilitation’

“We wanted to know, where did you make the difference? What was the turning point?” “a suggestion of one of our facilitators that we should have a kind of year book”

• Ways the IAF Netherlands brings people together

A full transcript is below.

Links

Today’s Chapter

https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/netherlands

Today’s guest: Contact Jan by email [e-mail]

To find out more about the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter

Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/

And to email us: [e-mail]

IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales

The Facilitation Stories Team

Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

Transcript

H.J

Hello and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. I'm Helene Jewell.

N.W

And I'm Nikki Wilson.

H.J

And this episode is one of our quarterly chapter chats, where we talk to people leading other chapters in the IAF global community. We ask them about how they see the status of facilitation where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations for their chapter. Today, we will be talking to Jan Lelie, facilitator and founder of IAF Netherlands.

N.W

So welcome Jan. So to start off with, could you tell us a little more about yourself and the work that you do Jan?

J.L

Yes, of course. Well, I facilitate, and I said, I've always facilitated. I worked for six weeks as a consultant in 1984 and then decided that it was not for me, and that any situation requires all the participants to be in the same room, in the same place, and if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And find out actually what the problem is about. So I studied physics, experimental physics, and there I learned that the definition of the problem is part of the problem. So in most of the situations, people have a, how shall I say, the rudimentary idea of their problem, and then they start to implement a solution. And when the solution doesn't work, the solution actually becomes a problem. So you're asked to get a solution implemented which is not the solution to a problem, so it will never work. And I started out in IT, information technology and communications, and there, often IT is not a problem, it's a solution that doesn't work.

H.J

And so you have been part of the IAF for nearly 30 years, I think. How have you seen the practice of facilitation and the role of facilitators change in that time?

J.L

Well, first of all, I think that everybody facilitates. It's like everybody communicates. So facilitation, in my experience, is about making connections. It's how you connect with people, how your relationship works, and from there, and everybody connects with each other, only like with communication, nobody has been trained into effective communication and in effective facilitation. So most people work from an expert position, like a consultant or a trainer or even a moderator, and facilitation, in my opinion, is a different paradigm, a different way of dealing with relationships, and the only way to progress is to to learn from each other in working as a facilitator and facilitating. So that was one of the reasons I went to an IAF conference in London in the end of the 1990s which was organized by the IAF, and because we had a computerized brainstorming solution, we wanted to show and also I already had organized a group of what we call moderators, a network of moderators. And then I learned that what I was doing was called facilitation.

H.J

It's interesting. I think a lot of people have said that, that they, they didn't necessarily call it facilitation, or call themselves facilitators. They sort of discovered by accident that there was a name for it.

J.L

I studied biophysics, and I used to call it catalysation. And the catalysation is what most of all biological systems rely on, catalysation. And catalysation, strangely enough, means breaking the connection. So facilitation means making, to make. And Li is a very ancient word which we can recognize in the word line. And line of Li is connection. So catalysation is breaking the connection. And in my way of facilitation, I'm always being aware of how to end the relationship, how to stop the relationship. I always facilitate with the end in mind, and that's what the catalyst does. The catalyst takes one molecule and another molecule, and tries to connect them, and then steps out of it and unchanged.

N.W

And how learned over that time, and if you, if you kind of recognize that that original conference, that what you were doing was, was facilitation, what kind of other things have you picked up through being engaged with other facilitators over that time?

J.L

What I do is practice makes perfect. So you have to practice what you preach. When I go to an IAF conference, I will do a workshop of myself and I also work with other facilitators to see and to learn from each other. Nowadays, at the conference we took about a quarter of an hour after a session, during IAF conference, to reflect on the session itself. What went well? What did you do? What can you do differently? And I think that is basically how I work. So it's still, I'm still doing training and courses, and then also what we learn together. I always say I cannot teach you anything. I can only facilitate your learning. And that's how I approach facilitation. Also, I try to be a facilitator’s facilitator. This might sound strange, but I will say the universe is my teacher. So the universe is very kind, and they offer you lessons. And the problem is that you, as I said, you cannot see the lesson until it appears, and then it's always in the resistance. So when you feel resistance against something, it's probably something you need to learn. And that is also what makes facilitation for most people very, I shall say, difficult or awkward, is that you have to deal with the resistance of a group or the situation, and let it be, not try to solve anything, but just like to see how it works out. If you see what I mean. Like I said, the universe doesn't have an agenda. So sometimes the lesson comes too early. Then you learn something, and you think, okay, thank you. And then sometimes the lesson comes too late. So then after two or three years, you realize, okay, this session, I happen to speak to a colleague facilitator yesterday, and she has problem in managing her team. And she said, it's difficult. And then I asked, What kind of difficulty? Is it difficulty? And then we remember suddenly a session we did, like 4, 5 years ago, what was a very simple technique by a Korean facilitator who I've invited of making bracelets of your, of what you find difficulty, and then put them on your arms and on your legs, or wherever you feel the difficulties, and then sit with them for some times, and then have a conversation with others who are also sitting with their difficulties and dealing with that. And that's where I work. You know, you get this, this method or this tool, and then you think, okay, just the opportunity will arise.

N.W

Oh, excellent. I love that idea of sort of collecting things that you might use in the future, but not necessarily knowing where they will, where the need for them will emerge. I think that's probably something that a lot of us do, but not always consciously. So that, I love that example. It's great.

H.J

I just want to think a bit or ask a bit more about that, the whole sort of community element, I suppose. And thinking about IAF and the IAF Netherlands and ask a little bit more about that. So you're current and past chair of IAF Netherlands, but prior to that, you were IAF Benelux. Can you tell us a little bit about how the chapter was established?

J.L

Yes, in the, well in 1990s I met John and Maureen Jenkins. And Maureen had been, or was, was becoming Chair of IAF world, and they happened to work in the Netherlands, and they organized a conference in Amersfoort here in the Netherlands, and I joined the conference together with some colleagues. And during the conference, we decided that we should have a Dutch network of facilitators, and we started to create a foundation called IAF Benelux. And it was in a time when IAF didn't have any chapters, it was just IAF world, and you became part of what, in my opinion, was an American organization, and then we, well, we founded this, this, this network, and we organized events. I think the most important thing is what we did is local events,and a yearly conference and also I went to the to European conferences. But the main thing for most Dutch people is they like to work in Dutch. And that is the other thing we organized from the IAF Benelux, we wanted to have a certification process, and at that time, it was only in English, but as that's been established by Dutchman, and there were some Dutch speaking assessors. We use the English process to have people certified in in Dutch and here in the Netherlands, we were the first organization which offered certification in their mother tongue.

H.J

Um, and that's for the Certified Professional facilitator accreditation

J.L

Yes, and I think we had about 100 or so certified facilitators here in the Netherlands at some time, because we did it together with the yearly conference, we had a certification event, and also we had separate certification event. At a certain time I think we had two every year. And beside that, we organized events, like I said, I like to meet other facilitators and to work together and to explore our way of working. And John and Maureen at that time, were very, as I said, supportive of the, of it. I think Maureen is one of the best facilitators in the world. He's one of a kind. So, and that's what worked for a couple of years, six or seven, eight years. And then IAF organized itself into chapter structures, and we had to become an association. So we, we terminated the foundation and became IAF Netherlands and for again, about, I think, 7,8,9 years. But the problem I always said with associations is that you have all these things about membership, and I think that association is not the best fit for a network of facilitators, because it creates expectations about what IAF does. So people usually ask me, okay, what is IAF going to do for me? And I said, Well, nothing. I'm not your mother. You have to facilitate yourself. We're here to facilitate you. But people kind of expect us to do things for them, and I was resisted that so, but I must say, I'm an exception. So most of my fellow board members, they were very kind, and they organized things, and they made memberships at everything. And I'm not that good in organizing things, you know.

H.J

I guess that's true of lots of people, though, isn't it? So some people are natural organizers, and some people just want to go and do whatever the facilitation or the, you know, take part in things. And sounds like a, it's a good job that you have that mix in the chapter.

J.L

Yeah, and I also said I'm the worst chair in the world, you know, because I facilitate, I don't share anything. So, but in the end, because the problem with a board is, in my opinion, that you shouldn't have people in the board for eternity. So we made the decision that you could only be two times three years in the board, and then you have to leave the board. So gradually the board of the IAF changed, and then many of the board members became frustrated, because when you organize a conference, not many people show up. I think that is only natural with facilitation, because it's the diversity of facilitators is too wide to have a common ground. That may sound strange, but in my opinion, we don't have a common ground. We don't have anything in common except that we call ourselves facilitators, and that is not enough to have a professional association. I personally always say a facilitation is not a profession, it's a calling.

N.W

And so I mean, I suppose, bearing that in mind, despite some of the challenges of finding some common ground, you have hosted 12 conferences, I think, over the past sort of 30 years, while you've been involved. So what have been some of the topics or themes that the conferences have been about and that you've brought together people around?

J.L

Well, usually, I collect a small group of people, and we have a conversation about, or a facilitated meeting about what, what could be the theme of the conference. So we did a conference of, do, do the nothing, or in, in the Dao, it's called the way Wu wei. So it's, it's like do nothing, and it's very difficult for facilitators not to intervene, but sometimes it's very important not to intervene, so be there and be aware of what happens, and notice that you should let things go as they were, and only wait until you

are invited to intervene. So we did a conference about that. We did a conference of sedators carries on. So I think it's in England it's a set of movies, carry on movies.

N.W

Yeah, quite a different facilitation, I think in my memory, but yes.

J.L

No, but it's also what we do. You know, you just carry on.

N.W

yeah, too true.

J.L

and also like things that like, Oh, what do you do when you don't know what to do? This is also an interesting theme. And we also did a thing on facilitating with the brain in mind. So at that time, about 10, 15 years ago, a brain facilitation was coming up. So I just invited facili, we just invited facilitators to have a meeting together, so and bring the knowledge or the experience together. And then we also did something about like serious facilitation, which is also very funny, facilitation, seriously.

H.J

It sounds like there's definitely a bit of a theme just listening to you talk around facilitators needing to sort of step back a bit and not get too stuck in. And I do recognize that that kind of feeling, that sometimes you feel as a facilitator, that you need to do something.

J.L

The other issue with facilitation is that you always have to work from a perspective and a meet up perspective. You have to be aware of your awareness. So you have to be aware of the metaphor which is being used. So people talk in metaphors, but you have to take the metaphor literally and not figuratively, and that is, and that is very hard to do, to see yourself in a situation and be aware of your situation and at the same time, how should I say, control your behavior or or inhibit that's also a thing which is important, that you are inhibited. In my opinion, I will say that your timing is more important than your method. So we are also always focused on to methods and techniques which are important. You know, you I know about every method and technique in the world, but at the same time, the timing is more important so you can use the wrong method and still have the right timing and get the results. Where, if you have a good methods, but your timing is wrong, then it won't work. And then people start to think, Okay, I should know this method better, but now it's not in the method its in your timing. And in my interventions, I always try ,and then when we do is also about when we're training, to be late in your intervention, a bit laid back so you can see your intervention coming, at least I can do it, and then I say, Okay, let's wait for some time and see if I'm right. You have to be aware of your assumptions. Yeah, that's it. And that's also in physics, you know, that's what I'm mean, to be, to be aware of your assumptions about what is needed and first test your assumptions before you act on it. That's, I think, how you should define your meta perspective. So whatever happens in a group, you make an assumption, okay, I think they are stuck. And then you say, okay, What sign do I have that they are stuck? Okay, well, they're quarreling, yeah, but quarreling doesn't mean they are stuck. It can also be very constructive. You know, one of the times as an example, I was a co facilitator with a facilitator, and people only in a group were disagreeing with each other, and they asked me, What should we do? I said, Well, just let the disagreement continue. Disagreement is good, and only when you're called in to, to facilitate, then you come as a facilitator. And and this is very hard to do, because you want to keep, to care for the group. Do you want to people to be constructive and to have people sometimes they have to disagree with each other. And only when you're asked to intervene, you intervene.

N.W

Yes, I think there's something really interesting there about, as you said, the timing, and kind of maybe leaving it a little bit longer than you'd be tempted to, just because sometimes then something more emerges that you might not have assumed would happen. And, yeah, really interesting.

H.J

Okay, thinking of time and moving on, just so we make use of the time we have. I just, I wanted to ask a little bit about the book that you co wrote, co authored. And this was, I think, one of the initiatives of your chapter, the IAF Netherlands chapter, and it was called diverging conversations through facilitation. And I think it's got 24 different case studies from different facilitators. And I just really wanted to find out a little bit more about that.

J.L

It was actually a suggestion of one of our facilitators that we should have a kind of year book. So every year a book about facilitation. And so I invited a group of facilitators to brainstorm about it, and I asked them to bring one of their favorite books, one book that inspired them. And then everybody introduces themselves using their book they brought. And then we looked at the qualities of the book, and then we make a list of the qualities about the book on facilitation, and then it was, they came off. So okay, we should have concrete cases about what you do as a facilitator, where you make the difference. It should have a strict format of four pages with two pictures, but not use the actual pictures, which make them into a line drawing, because you can read line drawings easier than pictures. And also they don't age. So pictures age, and then it should have a, shall I say, the preface, and a reflection on the on the book, and, and then we made this the chapters like, Okay, what did the client say? What was your situation? what was the core question? What did you do as a facilitator? And then away, actually, where did you make the difference as a facilitator? And then what was your result? And then a reflection on your session. And then we edited all the and then we asked people first of time in the Netherlands, we did the thing in the Netherlands, first called the book, was ‘Facilitation Made Easy’. And we just invited people who came to the conference or in our networks to submit cases and asked their clients if they were okay with that their case was used. And also we checked the actual cases, and then we edited them for for, how should I say it, that they all look the same. And also, when you ask a facilitator what they do, you get a long story about the I did this and this and then I did, but that was not interesting. We wanted to know, where did you make the difference? What was the turning point, or the the Blue Note way, what was, what was, what you did, the counterpoint in your session? And then we sent them back to them, and what do you think about it? And then when they agreed, we put them in the book. And then, and it was very clever. I think we made, we decided to print like 2000 copies, but you could have your own cover sheet. So you could buy 50 or 100 with your own organization on the front and on the back, with and, and these were the sponsors of the book. So they paid, actually, they paid the fixed cost for making a book, publishing the book, even before we had to sell it, because they have already and they got a very low price for the 50 or 100. So our company might at work, ordered 100 and there were several other organizations, most of them organization for facilitators who bought 50 or 100 copies in the pre-sales. And I had my book published by Helling here in the Netherlands about facilitation, which is actually a meta praxis. And then it was in the Netherlands it was a huge success, and I introduced it at an IAF Europe conference. And then we decided to create the international version, and we translated the 12 international cases from the Netherlands, because a lot of us work in other countries and than in the Netherlands, and we invited facilitators from England, from Germany, from Japan, from North Africa, to add their cases. And we use the same format, and we added a glossary of terms, because then suddenly you notice that when we use the same word, we are saying different things. And we published that book, and our basic idea at that time was to make it one yearly or two yearly event and use the cases from the IAF award, let's say, as a format. We proposed it to the board, but we never heard anything about our proposal, again. One of the other things a facilitator could only buy two copies. So you bought one for yourself, and want to give away.

H.J

Nice. I think I have a copy actually. So yeah.

N.W

And from all of those different global case studies, are there any sort of key themes or lessons that came out of those, or any particular case studies that stood out for you?

J.L

Yes, several. I think the case from Maureen Jenkins is very interesting because he worked with a congregation of nuns in Roman and international organization, which is actually very huge, but they have to change their way of working, and since it is very natural. And also, I like the case by Marlin Moran from Sweden, because in that case it is actually, it's a very short case, which actually, which is very often the case in many problem situations that people have different, how should I said, meanings of the same word. So in this case, it's about teamwork, but and the teamwork didn't work because they, the CEO, didn't think they were a team. They were working as a team, and it just happened that they had different definitions of the way of teamwork, some thinks, okay, it's a month or the weekly meeting. And also now we should pull together as a team we should share those. And Marlin noticed that and then made that as an intervention. And so this is also the cases that you start out with a certain assumption about what is the case, and then suddenly notice that there's a completely different problem or situation which is not being discussed and which should be on the forefront of the meeting. And I think this is one of the red threads, the one of ,what they have in common, that you are able to change your assumptions on what is happening while in the meeting. So of course, it's very difficult because you have prepared your script and or if you have your agenda and you want to stick to the agenda, but actually your own, I will say, you only got your agenda to know where you differ from your agenda. Plans are nothing. Planning is everything. So you've got a plan. I'm very, almost very well prepared for my sessions, but most of the times, in the first quarter an hour or first half an hour, the plan goes out of the window.

H.J

I really like that plan. Plans are nothing. Planning is everything. I think I might, I might take that as a quote.

J.L

yeah, and you have to be able to replan your session during session, and that is why you have to. So only when you are well prepared you can improvise, because that gives you the certainty that you have thought this and and the ability to let go of your preparation when the need arises, when the situation asks you to. By the way, I learned it from a very good facilitator. She once came to my training. You did the brown

N.W

and so thinking about, obviously, you've talked about the book and the conferences. What other ways do you sort of bring people together in IAF Netherlands? what other kinds of activities have you run? Or do you currently run?

J.L

Well, strangely enough,we had to dissolve the association, so we are now kind of a kind of open network, which I run through meetup, and I only organize one meeting a year, and still the meetup starts to grow and grow and grow. So we go from 300 or under 300 to over 500 now. And I sometimes ask people, okay, what you want me to organize, to facilitate, and then I get no response. So I don't know, you know, let's see. I'm hoping to do something in September about facilitation.

H.J

And do you have any particular you know, What do you think will happen in the future? So at the moment, it sounds like it's sort of loosely organized network of meetups. Or, as you say, you know, you put one meetup on a year. What are you hoping for the future?

J.L

Well, what I've seen, what this happened, has happened in the Netherlands, is that there are several networks now, or facilitators, most of them are organized in a company and around a certain method or a certain tool, like Open space or Agile or Facilitation Academy. And in most of those, future center. And in most of those networks, people participate, who used to be in the IAF network. And I sometimes talk to them and say, why don't you come to the IAF meetings? And then say, well, we don't need an international association. So they are like local organizations for local meetings. And I think it's that's I think I see myself, like as a catalyst. And also in the IAF Meetup group, most of the participants are non Dutch speakers, but they work with consultancy agency or, yeah, or they are self employed in networks as a trainer or a consultant. They don't call themselves facilitators, and I expect that after some time, we will start doing more meetings or sessions on facilitation. But then, you know, this is just my way of organizing. So I don't organize much. I like just things. Things happen all by themselves. They don't need me to to happen and only when you when I'm asked to do something, I do something, that may seem strange, but I think that most of, actually all change processes happen by themselves through everything, even before open space, I thought everything that happens is the only thing that can happen and the people who come are always the right people. You know, I did sessions at an international IAF conference, and only one person showed up at my workshop. And, okay, let's have a one person workshop. And she's still very fond of it. Since I met her again, she's from Turkey. She still remembers that workshop that sometimes you know you your workshops are crowded to 40, 50 people. Okay, your framing creates your situation. So when you frame yourself as an association, you've got Association problems, and I can say blindly, which they are. You have to tend to take care of your members. The members expect you. You have to have a board, and your board will indefinitely expand. You have a certification events, and the certification will also proliferate. You get like a master certificate and a beginner certificate, I already predicted that this is a normal way of working. And as I said, facilitation is not a normal way of working. We are exceptional people ,work in an exceptional situation.

N.W

Okay, well, I mean, I think there's a really lovely sort of emergent theme, kind of running through the conversation today, which I think it's more about, as you, you said earlier on, about the kind of ,the universe, I think, and how that shifts, and maybe that's how the future of the chapter might emerge and sort of respond. So I think we've had a really great conversation today, Jan thank you so much for your time. If listeners are in the Netherlands, where should they look? You mentioned the meetup, where can they find out more?

J.L

Yeah, the IAF Netherlands meet up.

N.W

Okay, so is there a website they need to look for?

J.L

It's a Facilitator Meetup Netherlands facilitated by IAF Netherlands it's called.

N.W

Okay

J.L

And there are now 5579 members.

N.W

Brilliant. And what about if people would like to get in touch with you directly. Where's the best place to find you?

J.L

Well, you can use it through the facilitator meetup by IAF Netherlands, or send me an email. [e-mail]

N.W

Great. Thank you so much.

H.J

Thank you so much. Jan, it's been really interesting talking to you, and I'd love to chat more, but for today's podcast, thank you very much.

J.L

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, lovely to talk with you.