Ep 19: Back to Training

C3 Podcast: Active Shooter Incident Management

Episode 19 Back To Training: What's New and What You Can Do Now

We're back with updates, what's new, and how you can get great training now!

All:

We're back!

Bill Godfrey:

Hi and welcome back to our next podcast installment. We have been silent for a little while. It's been a while since we've done our last podcast, but that's not because we haven't been ... We've been quite busy. We're not sitting around on our hands. And that's what we're going to talk about today, is just kind of catch you up on everything that's been going on here, and talk about some of the new stuff that's happened and where we're heading with it.

Bill Godfrey:

Today I have with me three of the other instructors from C3 Pathways; Billy Perry, we have Don Tuten, and Mark Rhame. My name is Bill Godfrey, your host, and today we are going to kind of catch you up on what we're doing. Guys, thanks for taking the time to join us. I appreciate you all being here.

Billy Perry:

Thanks for having me here.

Mark Rhame:

Awesome. Thanks for the opportunity.

Bill Godfrey:

Absolutely. So, been an odd time with COVID.

Billy Perry:

Definitely been challenging.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. A little bit for all of us. And I kind of, for us, the way I always describe it ... and you guys have heard me say this ... is I break it into this idea of phase one and phase two. Phase one of COVID, "Eh, we'll hunker down for a month or two. This'll blow over and we'll go back to being normal," and phase two was, "Yeah, that's not going to happen. We need to shift gears and do something different." So let's talk about that.

Bill Godfrey:

So, since we kind of had our face-to-face training shut down, we've actually got a number of new courses that we've put out, and a whole new training platform. So the first one I'd like to talk about is SSAVEIM. SSAVEIM is our School Safety And Violent Event Incident Management course. And Mark, you were there for the pilot delivery that we did up in the Jacksonville area. Can you talk a little bit about the class and what your experience was?

Mark Rhame:

Well, I think the amazing thing to me was that it was a class that had a lot of teachers, school administrators, along with a cadre of law enforcement officials and fire and EMS. So what it gave the school principals and teachers the opportunity to see is why we do this. I think that was one of the biggest things I took away from that class, is that they didn't get why we did so much and why we did that particular activity at an event at their school, and when we got done with the class, it pretty much opened their eyes. They said, "Now we understand it. We understand how we're part of this procedure, this policy that you're going to enact if there's unfortunately an active shooter event at our school."

Mark Rhame:

And it's something that opened my eyes too, because I figured that they had been training on this, they had been talking about the threats and the active events that might happen at their school, the possibility, but I think this class really gave an opportunity for those teachers, those administrators to actually see it in practice, and how they are really an important cog in that whole wheel, if you will. Because without them, we're not going to be successful. We need them to be part of the response, if you will, and making sure that we get these people in a safe environment so we can do our jobs.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah, I saw a lot of the same things. There was a lot of the eyes wide open when we got to the ... It wasn't really so much about the process of getting the bad guy ... I think they kind of generally got that that's the priority ... but I think they were a little bit surprised by how much it took to get the injured off of the scene, and I saw a lot of eyes really wide open once we got the bad guys taken care of, the injured are off the scene; now we've got to figure out how to move the kids from the classrooms, doing an offsite reunification. A lot of them thought, "No, we're going to use our own school." Why does that now work out too well, Billy?

Billy Perry:

Right. It's a crime scene, and there's a lot of things going on there, a lot of moving parts, and yeah, it's just not practical.

Don Tuten:

And you have an influx of parents trying to get there, you have a lot of traffic issues obviously, you have emergency personnel coming and going nonstop, and it's just ... It's not the way we do business to make things flow and to make it [inaudible 00:04:17] There's a lot of challenges with that that I think, you're correct, it opened their eyes on a lot of things and it had them reevaluate their plans, as well as taking this training and understanding that this is opportunity for them to not only learn something from this class, and how police and fire work, but also how they can tailor their plans to help them better prepare around our tactics and around our procedures and how we make these things go away.

Mark Rhame:

Yeah, and Bill, I think there was a lot of misconception that they had, as you stated earlier, about ... as Billy said, this is a crime scene. They can't use that school for their reunification purposes, and when we talk about reunification, we can't use them either, because they were involved. They are witnesses. Or maybe we want them to be the ones that stay with their kids so that we can have accountability. So that portion of it, on the reunification side, they just didn't get it. They thought, "Oh, well we're going to be part of the process." Well no, actually you're not. You're part of the initial assault. You're going to be involved in being either the witness, or you're going to be making sure those kids get into a safe environment, because we've got to have accountability. And I don't think they understood it, but I think they did when we walked out of there.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah, I thought so too, and of course I don't want us to spend too much time talking about SSAVEIM today, because our next couple of podcasts ... we've got a two-part series coming up with John-Michael Keyes from the I Love U Guys Foundation talking about the SSAVEIM course, which was a partnership with I Love U Guys ... and talking about reunification as well, but ... So I know here in Florida we've been back to school for a while, but across the country, it's kind of all over the place; some are back, some are going back, some are in between, some aren't going back. Do you think we've been pretty lucky, given the tenor and tone of what's going on in the country, that we haven't had any events at schools in this year?

Billy Perry:

Absolutely.

Don Tuten:

Yeah. I think that with anything that challenges school or business and everything going on right now, we've lost focus on ... I won't say lost focus; maybe we're not as clear focused because these kids are out of school, for the most part, and I think now is the time for people really to start thinking, "Okay, this is why we train. This is why we do this." And just because the majority of kids may not be in school right now, and as they're coming in, we really need to stay focused on that continuous threat that's out there wanting to harm our kids.

Mark Rhame:

And I also think there's an enhanced level of stress and depression going on right now.

Billy Perry:

That's what I was going to say, Mark. I agree.

Mark Rhame:

You know, from school kids to teachers. I mean, I've got friends who are teachers who say it's not unusual to lose a teacher who just can't take it anymore. They're leaving the profession. And the kids are stressed out. So we've got a new faction of stress and depression and anxiety coming from the COVID environment from this last year that we've been through.

Billy Perry:

And I will say we've lost focus, but I mean, I think we have. I think we're all on a powder keg. We're sitting on a powder keg with all the things that we were talking about; with the depression, with the cabin fever, with the being isolated, with the can't go to movies, you can't go to bars in certain areas. I mean, I think everybody's really frustrated.

Don Tuten:

Well, COVID's become the headline unfortunately—

Billy Perry:

Absolutely!

Don Tuten:

And not safety of and response of [crosstalk 00:07:34]—

Billy Perry:

Right. And everything we're doing here, they're perishable skills. They're no different than shooting—

Don Tuten:

Absolutely.

Billy Perry:

They're no different than driving, they're no different than life safety. They're perishable skills, and the longer we stay away from them, the more they degrade and erode.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Rhame:

And I think it's been put on the back shelf. I mean, frankly this isn't the issue people are talking about right now until it happens again. When it happens again, it'll go to the front of the line.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah, and you know, to a degree I kind of understand the put it on the back shelf for a little while, but I think that's why it's important to start talking about it again. Let's not wait to get back to that until a tragedy happens. Let's ... All right, we had to take a pause, we had other things to do. COVID was a really big deal, and it was hard on responders, but let's not forget we've got to ... even if life hasn't gone back to normal, we've got to re-normalize getting back to training and doing that.

Billy Perry:

I'm a fighter, and I equate it as fighting multiple attackers. You address the immediate danger first, but that doesn't negate the danger that's [crosstalk 00:08:41] address the immediate danger ... COVID ... now let's address the other danger, which is the normal stuff that we have. That hasn't gone away.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah. Absolutely. So, let's tangent away. For those of you that are interested in learning more about SSAVEIM, School Safety And Violent Event Incident Management, tune into the next couple of podcast. I think you'll find it a fascinating conversation with John-Michael Keyes, which ironically we actually recorded before COVID really took hold, but they're still very appropriate to take a listen to.

Bill Godfrey:

So let's talk about our latest training platform that we created for being able to do hands-on training remotely. That was the big topic we were all talking about as instructors. Everything we do involves hands-on training. How in the hell are we going to do that remotely? And the answer was we needed to build our own platform to do it, you just couldn't ... What we need to do, we couldn't do in Zoom or Microsoft Teams, and so we did that as part of this campus project with the National Center for Integrated Emergency Response ... NCIER ... so we've got a NCIER campus now as this tool to be able to put everybody into a training environment.

Bill Godfrey:

So when you sign in, you literally join into this grand lobby ... which I've got to tell you guys, I'm a little spoiled, but I love those floor-to-ceiling windows that overlook Biscayne Bay and Miami. It's just ... Every time I sign in, it's just so calming.

Don Tuten:

It's a perfect training environment. It's a perfect training environment that I'll tell you is unreal, and I would encourage everybody to go to YouTube and look at some of the information on NCIER through C3 Pathways. It's a great place to work. It's phenomenal, and the technology is second to none right now.

Bill Godfrey:

And Billy, I'm going to actually throw this one over to you, because you were one of the very first instructors who I called up and said ... because you lean so heavily into the hands-on training component. And I called up and I kind of pitched this idea to you that was bouncing around in my head before we had started on anything, because I figured your reaction would tell me what I needed to know. Do you want to tell people what you were thinking?

Billy Perry:

I'm like, "This is beyond challenging." Yeah, I had a more skeptical view. I was the skeptic. Yeah.

Bill Godfrey:

Well, absolutely. Absolutely.

Billy Perry:

100%. Because I was afraid that ... because I've seen the Zoom meetings and I've seen that from other agencies and things, and where people log on and leave and go do other stuff and come back and say, "Yeah, that sounds great," and then gone again. Go for a run, whatever. Literally. That's not hyperbole, that literally happens. But you've built things into that. Because I was the skeptic of this.

Don Tuten:

And this program is so interactive—

Billy Perry:

It is.

Don Tuten:

You can't do that.

Billy Perry:

Right. Right.

Don Tuten:

This is a video game ... and I hate to use that analogy—

Billy Perry:

I do too.

Don Tuten:

Because it's not ... but it's the highest quality that you can have, minus a video game, based around training.

Billy Perry:

Well, Bill did what I didn't think could be done.

Don Tuten:

That's amazing.

Billy Perry:

No, he removed anonymity.

Don Tuten:

Yeah.

Billy Perry:

Because in all the other, in the Zooms and everything else, you have anonymity.

Don Tuten:

Right.

Billy Perry:

This one you don't have anonymity.

Don Tuten:

No.

Billy Perry:

I mean, because when we walk up to you with proximal mics, when we walk up to you and go, "Hey. What are you doing?" and you don't answer, we turn you off. And you come back and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I've been turned off!" Yeah.

Mark Rhame:

Well, how many of us are going through our careers and we have to get re-certified every single year, every two years, and it's the same old course?

Billy Perry:

Right.

Mark Rhame:

You take something on a video. As you said before Billy, you bring it up and then you walk away. Do you really pay attention to it? Maybe you do so you can take the test at the end. But this has everybody involved. Everybody is involved in the scenarios. It's not just a lecture, it's not just a PowerPoint, it literally is involvement in multiple scenarios that reinforces what we just talked about.

Don Tuten:

It's some of the most realistic training I've seen, without being face-to-face, in anything. And there again, I'm not a gamer, I'm not a videographer on stuff, but I was amazed when I sat down and thought, "Man, I am in this room. I am interacting with this instructor and I'm a thousand miles away."

Mark Rhame:

And especially for those people who have taken the Asim Advanced. This is a great complement to the Asim Advanced. Because you could actually still get your incident management training in a remote platform. We don't have to band to that. We can keep going [crosstalk 00:13:14]

Billy Perry:

Plus, these are perishable, and it gives you reps.

Don Tuten:

Well, and everybody's on the same playing field too, whether you're an emergency manager or a police officer or you're a firefighter. Personally I think this allows people to communicate a little bit better than wearing their stars, bars, and egos on their shoulders. When we're face-to-face and we go through that, now everybody's on the same playing field. You know your job. And I think, Bill, you've built a program here to where we haven't lost the value of that training. Personally I think the communication's a little bit better on this, because everybody's within the close proximity of the rooms that you built.

Billy Perry:

I think ... and openly and admittedly and laughingly we say I was the biggest skeptic. I don't think it's going to replace face-to-face, but I do think that it is an absolute ... I don't think it's going away, though, after COVID. I think this opens up venues to people that couldn't do the other, and I think this is huge. I think this is an opportunity for training.

Billy Perry:

All training is not good training. Good training is good training. And this is amazing training.

Bill Godfrey:

And I certainly appreciate the compliments, but remember, this was a huge team effort. I mean, we—

Billy Perry:

It was a heavy lift.

Bill Godfrey:

It was a heavy lift. We did the programming and the coding. For those of you that don't know, C3 has a bunch of programmers and developers that we use because we've been into simulation technology pretty heavy for years. We did the bulk of the programming in 60 days, and then spent another 30 days kind of debugging and fixing things. So a total of 90 days to develop this thing, which was an insane schedule. We kind of all knew that, but everybody knew what we needed to get done. We brought six of the instructors on board to be kind of our anchor instructors and give us feedback. Billy, you saw some of the early versions that were really rough.

Billy Perry:

We've come a long way.

Bill Godfrey:

Coming a long way, but I've also got to give a big shout out to [Jay Darren 00:15:03] up in Wisconsin, and [Terry Nichols 00:15:05] out in Texas, who agreed to be the first couple of pilot deliveries on this platform and kind of be the guinea pigs. There were still a lot of bugs in those first couple of classes, but it was amazing because there was still training going on. Even with the challenges, just the attitude of the participants was fantastic, and it allowed us to learn what we needed to learn to get to where we are now, which is a much more stable platform and much more ... So it was a team effort, and shout out to those guys.

Bill Godfrey:

I think the other piece that bears mentioning is that we're not done building this platform yet. We just added, in the last few weeks, the computer-aided dispatch system for our dispatchers. Many of you know that we've had that capability in the advanced class for the dispatchers, to be used in a CAD system and be dispatching and talking to the units on radio, but we've added that into this capability as well. So in the NCIER campus, we've got not only the breakout rooms where we're actually running the scenarios and doing the downrange tactics and the command post, but we've got a dispatch center and an EOC setup that has the computers that lets them log into CAD.

Bill Godfrey:

So there's a lot of adventures to come ahead, but let's talk a little bit about the two-day active shooter incident management class. This is our Asim Intermediate class. The certified version is PER352. Many of our listeners are probably aware of the advanced class, the three-day class, which is PER353.

Bill Godfrey:

So what's your takeaways about what we've had to change? What's the good and the bad with the two-day version versus the three-day? I mean, obviously there's the obvious one ... the three-day advanced class is taught face-to-face and we're not doing that now. In fact, we don't really know when DHS is going to let us start doing face-to-face classes again, but it's going to be a while. So we're doing the intermediate now. But what are your thoughts on it?

Don Tuten:

I can tell you on my behalf, I think that there's a lot less time learning the system in the two-day class, and how we're delivering it right now. I think the information is there, I think it's ... The information hasn't changed whatsoever, but I think it's less learning on the student on how to manipulate some of the simulations. I think it's easier ... for lack of better terms ... on this platform, it's easier to teach somebody, and the main reason is is because the way that this has been created, it's so user friendly, personally you get a lot better learning objective out of it. I mean, you can still write on the boards, you can still put vests on, you can still ... the proximity talking when you talk and move around.

Billy Perry:

[crosstalk 00:17:53] talk to each other.

Don Tuten:

Exactly, talk to each other. You have a radio still, with seven channels, that you can go to different channels. You got staging, you ... For me, it's less moving parts from the face-to-face, which there's pros and cons to that; because we like having, when we do the longer class, people actually being able to move around, but I think under these conditions, this is one of the best ... personally, I just think it's the best of two worlds, of not having anything versus face-to-face and having three days and how do we put that information into two days? I don't know, I encourage everybody to go, once again, on YouTube and look at some of the different trailers for this, and you judge for yourself. You judge for yourself.

Billy Perry:

My biggest positive for me is accessibility. I think that more people can get to it because you don't have to travel, you don't have to fly to somewhere, you don't have to be boarded, you don't have to pay for a per diem, you don't have to do all that. You can do it right there. And I think it's more accessible for somebody from, especially a small financially strapped department, especially these ... That's just me.

Mark Rhame:

I'm going to step away from the technology side and say that it's a great introduction and usage of the check list. That's one of the things, a stumble block when we get into the Asim Advanced. We go through that first day generally, and you're looking at people and they're still kind of lost. They're going, "How does this system work?" Day two, they get it, they're starting to run with it, and by day three you can almost not even coach them. You can let them go because they get it.

Mark Rhame:

And this platform does the same thing in a two-day process. We introduce that checklist, the validated checklist that they can utilize in their own department if they choose to do so, and it does it in a two-day period, allowing us to step up scenarios in a two-day period from the very basic in the very beginning all the way down to a complex coordinated attack at the very end. And again, in a two-day period in a remote training platform. So it works.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah. Interesting. You know, one of the most telling things to me was the breaks. And I don't know about you guys, but my ability on Zoom and the other platforms is about, honestly, 15 to 20 minutes and then I'm drifting. It's hard to focus past that.

Billy Perry:

That's on a good day.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah, that's very true. And we thought that was going to be the same here. In fact, the very first delivery we did, we scheduled in very, very frequent breaks and some of the feedback we got almost immediately is like, "Hey, can we skip that? We don't need a break. We're good to go. Let's just keep pushing." And we've seen, with comfort, with student comfort and positive student feedback, 45, 50, 60-minute sessions. We had one the other day we did for the City of Baltimore on their final kind of mack daddy scenario. The scenario ran a solid hour, the debrief ran probably 30 minutes, and everybody just wanted to go right through it. They were like, "No, we get it. We want to talk about it. Let's just move through it."

Mark Rhame:

Well, I can see it also in the PowerPoint presentation. When you're talking to this group of ... and it's avatars, it's their avatars out there in the audience. When you ask them a question and say, "Hey, does anyone experience this? Jump up and down if you do," and you're seeing the whole room of people jumping up and down, and you can walk up close to them and said, "Lieutenant Jones, tell us about how your department does this." And that person has the ability in a remote training platform to tell an experience of their own department and what they've been through, how it applies to what we're talking about at that point in time. And you're not going to get that in another remote training platform. This one is totally different.

Don Tuten:

No, and I think this sets people up for that advanced training also once they go through this, because in the advanced, they've had the opportunity to go through how some of this stuff works and then how we communicate, and it's a little bit easier communicating over the computer versus some of the communication challenges that we have in person.

Don Tuten:

But by that three-day course, building in the PIO piece that's a little bit more robust, and having to write the information for the PIO, having to get the emergency manager to actually go get the information or have a liaison give them the information, and doing that on scene. So it's not a negative, it's the positive negative, for lack of better terms. When you go to that three-day course is ... Now you have the baseline of the two-day course. Move into the three-day course. Now you're getting a little bit more of the complexity of actually having to communicate back and forth.

Don Tuten:

I don't know, I think this is an easier way to communicate. I think maybe that some of the time restraints that maybe the three-day takes is people getting used to the communication piece. But I think that's good training as well, because that's realistic.

Bill Godfrey:

It is real world.

Don Tuten:

Absolutely.

Bill Godfrey:

There are communication problems on real-world events.

Don Tuten:

On everything, right.

Mark Rhame:

In fact, I would say even more so. This sort of mirrors that.

Bill Godfrey:

Yep. Absolutely. So, the other thing I want to talk about before we wrap up today is the other new class that we've come out with during this period that we've put onto the NCIER platform, is our CCTA class for EOC. So this is a complex coordinated terrorist attack class for EOC. Who wants to describe it? I mean, I know you were all there teaching that first delivery he did.

Mark Rhame:

Well, it's applying what we do in our Asim class, and we bring in the emergency managers in the community, the people who work in those ... And it sounds insulting when I say support roles, because it frankly is not. They're in leadership roles and they're in their own communities. But bringing in that next phase of our response and our emergency management response.

Mark Rhame:

Now, I have to tell you that not every community is the same. We've taught in some classes where the emergency management, when they stand up their EOC, they frankly become a level of in charge, if you will; part of that incident command structure. And then you have some other communities that when they stand at their emergency operation center, they become more of a support role; assisting the incident commander, the law enforcement officers, and the fire and EMS personnel responding to this environment.

Mark Rhame:

So we have to adapt to those classes of those people we're talking to, but it really does allow the emergency managers to show what they have to offer in their community. Because a lot of times we talk about it ... You know, you talk about to an incident commander ... whether it's law enforcement or a firefighter or an EMS personnel ... about what they do when they stand up their incident command structure, but do they really get engaged about that support roles; the other pieces and parts in their community that are going to make them successful? And that's what emergency management's going to do for you.

Don Tuten:

I think the biggest thing for the first responders is they get to interact with the emergency managers where a lot of times they're not face-to-face, they're passing up information and the education that those first responders are getting on exactly what these emergency managers do. And then conversely, the information that the emergency managers get on the challenges that law enforcement and firefighters go through in, one, handling the challenge that is out there for them to do; two, passing up the information; and then three, closing that loop between all of them. And I think, I don't know, personally I wish I would've had this class 20 years ago just to know that this is what emergency managers do, this is what they can bring to the table, and this is where my information is going to ultimately in a complex coordinated attack.

Billy Perry:

Right. It illuminates the fact that there are challenges, A, and B, here are the solutions to the challenges. I think that's the big thing. And that's one of the things about all of this that we've been talking about. These aren't procedures, they're not plans, they're not tactics, they are solutions.

Don Tuten:

Yeah. And I'll tell you, you bring up a good point, because there's a lot of things that first responders ... We will do the job that we're asked to do, but we forget about the fact that, listen, these emergency managers are worried about, "Where am I going to put these people, and what resources do I have to call?" And it's good for the first responders to see some of those challenges so they can be forward-thinking and forward-leaning after taking this class and knowing some of those challenges that are going to be coming up, whether it be—

Billy Perry:

It's the same thing as the educators in SSAVEIM.

Don Tuten:

Absolutely.

Mark Rhame:

And the emergency managers also see the value of crossing jurisdictional lines and asking for additional assets and resources, whereas a line firefighter, EMS personnel, or law enforcement officer probably doesn't see that. They don't see the big picture of where does this stuff come from, and who asked for it. Who's paying for it, frankly, because there's a lot of things that are happening in the background that they don't see, and this class allows them to see that, "Oh, that's how that happens. That's how we get those assets from the local community next to me," or maybe the state assets or the federal assets. And that's what your emergency managers have the capability of doing for you.

Don Tuten:

And the contacts. And the contacts they have prior to an incident happening on—

Billy Perry:

All the contracts they have.

Don Tuten:

Exactly. Buses and, I mean just, it's amazing.

Bill Godfrey:

Well, and I'll be the first to say it; we learned a lot of lessons on that very first delivery for some things that we needed to adjust to hit the bullseye a little bit better. We needed some additional facilities within the NCIER campus, we just didn't have some of the tools that we needed and some of the support material that I wanted to have to keep the scenarios flowing and involve the emergency managers a little bit better. And so those adjustments, we've already made some of them. We've got some pretty massive expansion that's planned for the campus; a whole new EOC add-on that's going to be coming in the very near future that I think is going to be pretty exciting.

Bill Godfrey:

So, this about wraps up our time. Gentlemen, thank you very much for taking the time to be with us today. I hope you enjoyed it. Please don't forget to tune in to the next couple of podcasts with myself and John-Michael Keyes from the I Love U Guys Foundation, talking about our partnership and reunification and the SSAVEIM course. And also don't forget to subscribe. We are back on our stride. We're going to be pushing out the podcasts regularly. Our goal is to get up to a one-a-week schedule. If you're interested in getting into the Asim Intermediate class, those classes are funded by DHS, so they're no cost to the participants. So if you're an emergency responder out there in the US, it is no cost to you to be in this class.

Bill Godfrey:

There is a little bit of a process to go through, but you can certainly reach out and contact us. We have classes that are ... I cannot believe how much the schedule has filled up. We've got classes going on every week. In a couple cases, we've got two or three classes happening a week, so there is a lot of activity going on. But please, by all means, feel free to reach out to us. Either give us a call at the office or send us an email through the website.

Bill Godfrey:

And special thanks to our partners, our training partners, both at [Alert Antiques 00:29:03] and the NDPC at FEMA DHA for providing that support and that funding, and encouraging us to build this platform. I think there were a lot of people upstream of me, Billy, when we've hatched some plans that had the very very similar reaction to you and they weren't really sure we could pull it off, but I'm excited to be where we are.

Bill Godfrey:

So come along with us for the ride, and if you haven't subscribed to the podcast series, please do that. In the meantime, stay safe and we'll talk to you next time.